Search

Bava Batra 175b

Want to dedicate learning? Get started here:

podcast placeholder

0:00
0:00




Summary

Today’s shiur was sponsored by Ilana Kurshan and Daniel Feldman in honor of the siyum.

Study Guide Bava Batra 175-176. What are the differences between a loan with a contract and a loan with an oral agreement?  If a guarantor signs after the loan takes place, can one collect from the guarantor?  An interesting exchange between Rabbi Yishmael and ben Nanas may shed light on the masechet as a whole.

Bava Batra 175b

הוֹצִיא עָלָיו כְּתַב יָדוֹ שֶׁהוּא חַיָּיב לוֹ – גּוֹבֶה מִנְּכָסִים בְּנֵי חוֹרִין.

If one presents to a debtor a document in the handwriting of the debtor stating that he owes money to him, but without witnesses signed on the document, the creditor can collect only from unsold property.

עָרֵב הַיּוֹצֵא לְאַחַר חִיתּוּם שְׁטָרוֹת – גּוֹבֶה מִנְּכָסִים בְּנֵי חוֹרִין.

In the case of a guarantor whose commitment emerged after the signing of the promissory note, the creditor can collect the sum only from unsold property of the guarantor.

מַעֲשֶׂה וּבָא לִפְנֵי רַבִּי יִשְׁמָעֵאל, וְאָמַר: גּוֹבֶה מִנְּכָסִים בְּנֵי חוֹרִין. אָמַר לוֹ בֶּן נַנָּס: אֵינוֹ גּוֹבֶה לֹא מִנְּכָסִים מְשׁוּעְבָּדִים וְלֹא מִנְּכָסִים בְּנֵי חוֹרִין.

The mishna relates: An incident occurred where such a case came before Rabbi Yishmael, and he said: The creditor can collect the sum from unsold property of the guarantor, but not from liened property that he has sold to others. Ben Nannas said to Rabbi Yishmael: The creditor cannot collect the sum from the guarantor at all, not from liened property that has been sold, nor from unsold property.

אָמַר לוֹ: לָמָּה? אָמַר לוֹ: הֲרֵי הַחוֹנֵק אֶת אֶחָד בַּשּׁוּק, וּמְצָאוֹ חֲבֵירוֹ וְאָמַר לוֹ ״הַנַּח לוֹ [וַאֲנִי אֶתֵּן לָךְ]״ – פָּטוּר, שֶׁלֹּא עַל אֱמוּנָתוֹ הִלְוָהוּ. אֶלָּא אֵיזֶה הוּא עָרֵב שֶׁהוּא חַיָּיב? ״הַלְוֵהוּ, וַאֲנִי נוֹתֵן לָךְ״ – חַיָּיב, שֶׁכֵּן עַל אֱמוּנָתוֹ הִלְוָהוּ.

Rabbi Yishmael said to him: Why not? Ben Nannas said to him: If one was strangling someone in the marketplace, demanding repayment of a loan, and another person found him doing so and said to the attacker: Leave him alone and I will give you the money he owes, the person who intervened is exempt from paying, as the creditor did not loan the money in the first place based on his trust of the one who intervened. Rather, who is a guarantor who is obligated to repay the loan he has guaranteed? One who tells the creditor before the loan takes place: Lend money to him, and I will give you the repayment, as in that case the creditor did loan the money based on his trust of the guarantor.

וְאָמַר רַבִּי יִשְׁמָעֵאל: הָרוֹצֶה שֶׁיַּחְכִּים – יַעֲסוֹק בְּדִינֵי מָמוֹנוֹת; שֶׁאֵין לָךְ מִקְצוֹעַ בַּתּוֹרָה יוֹתֵר מֵהֶן, וְהֵן כְּמַעְיָין הַנּוֹבֵעַ. וְהָרוֹצֶה שֶׁיַּעֲסוֹק בְּדִינֵי מָמוֹנוֹת – יְשַׁמֵּשׁ אֶת שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן נַנָּס.

And Rabbi Yishmael thereupon said: One who wants to become wise should engage in the study of monetary law, as there is no greater discipline in the Torah, and it is like a flowing spring. And, he added, one who wants to engage in the study of monetary law should attend to, i.e., become a disciple of, Shimon ben Nannas.

גְּמָ׳ אָמַר עוּלָּא: דְּבַר תּוֹרָה – אֶחָד מִלְוֶה בִּשְׁטָר, וְאֶחָד מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה – גּוֹבֶה מִנְּכָסִים מְשׁוּעְבָּדִים. מַאי טַעְמָא? שִׁעְבּוּדָא דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא. וְאֶלָּא מַה טַּעַם אָמְרוּ מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה אֵינוֹ גּוֹבֶה אֶלָּא מִנְּכָסִין בְּנֵי חוֹרִין? מִשּׁוּם פְּסֵידָא דְלָקוֹחוֹת.

GEMARA: Ulla says: By Torah law, a creditor, whether in the case of a loan with a promissory note or the case of a loan by oral contract, can collect the debt from liened property that has been sold by the debtor subsequent to his receiving the loan. What is the reason for this? The property of a debtor at the time of the loan, even an oral loan, is liened by Torah law. And what is the reason the Sages said that one who gives a loan by oral contract can collect the debt only from unsold property? Because of the loss that would be incurred by purchasers of land if the seller’s creditors could seize the land they have purchased.

אִי הָכִי, מִלְוֶה בִּשְׁטָר נָמֵי! הָתָם, אִינְהוּ נִינְהוּ דְּאַפְסִידוּ אַנַּפְשַׁיְיהוּ.

The Gemara asks: If so, a loan with a promissory note should also not be collected from purchasers of property, as this would cause them a loss. The Gemara answers: There, in the case of a loan recorded in a promissory note, the purchasers, who neglected to investigate the financial status of the seller before purchasing land from him, brought the loss upon themselves. By contrast, loans by oral contract are often impossible to discover, even with a thorough investigation.

וְרַבָּה אָמַר: דְּבַר תּוֹרָה – אֶחָד מִלְוֶה בִּשְׁטָר וְאֶחָד מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה – אֵינוֹ גּוֹבֶה אֶלָּא מִנְּכָסִים בְּנֵי חוֹרִין. מַאי טַעְמָא? שִׁעְבּוּדָא לָאו דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא. וּמַה טַּעַם אָמְרוּ מִלְוֶה בִּשְׁטָר גּוֹבֶה מִנְּכָסִים מְשׁוּעְבָּדִים? כְּדֵי שֶׁלֹּא תִּנְעוֹל דֶּלֶת בִּפְנֵי לֹוִין.

And Rabba says: By Torah law, a creditor, whether in the case of a loan with a promissory note or the case of a loan by oral contract, can collect the debt only from the debtor’s unsold property. What is the reason for this? The property of a debtor is not liened by Torah law. And what is the reason the Sages said that one who gives a loan with a promissory note can collect the debt from liened property that has been sold? So as not to lock the door in the face of potential borrowers. If one could not collect a debt by taking liened property that has been sold, people would be hesitant to put their money at risk by lending it.

אִי הָכִי, מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה נָמֵי! הָתָם לֵית לֵיהּ קָלָא.

The Gemara asks: If that is so, that there is a desire to encourage people to lend money by granting greater power of collection to creditors, a loan by oral contract should also be collectible from liened property that has been sold. The Gemara answers: There, in the case of a loan by oral contract, it has no publicity associated with it, so that purchasers often cannot find out about it, even after a thorough investigation, and it would be an unfair burden on them to have the property purchased by them seized in such cases.

וּמִי אָמַר רַבָּה הָכִי? וְהָא אָמַר רַבָּה: גָּבוּ קַרְקַע – יֵשׁ לוֹ. גָּבוּ מָעוֹת – אֵין לוֹ!

The Gemara asks: And did Rabba really say this? But doesn’t Rabba say, in the case of a firstborn son, that if he and his brothers collected a debt from land, he has the right to receive a double portion of that payment, but if they collected a debt from money, he does not have the right to a double portion? A firstborn son is entitled to a double share of inheritance of any property that was owned by his father at the time of his death, but not to profits or income that accrue to the estate after his death. If a debt owed to the father is collected from land after his death, Rabba said that the firstborn is entitled to a double portion, indicating that the land was considered in the father’s possession even before he died, which indicates that Rabba holds that the property of a debtor is liened to a creditor by Torah law.

וְכִי תֵּימָא אֵיפוֹךְ דְּרַבָּה לְעוּלָּא וּדְעוּלָּא לְרַבָּה, וְהָא אָמַר עוּלָּא: דְּבַר תּוֹרָה, בַּעַל חוֹב דִּינֵיהּ בְּזִבּוּרִית!

And if you would say: The opinions as they were cited earlier are attributed incorrectly, and it is necessary to reverse the two opinions, and exchange the opinion of Rabba for that of Ulla, and that of Ulla for that of Rabba, there is a difficulty: But doesn’t Ulla say elsewhere: By Torah law the halakha of a creditor is to collect his debt only from inferior-quality land?

אֶלָּא רַבָּה – טַעְמָא דִּבְנֵי מַעְרְבָא קָאָמַר, וְלֵיהּ לָא סְבִירָא לֵיהּ.

The Gemara resolves the contradiction between Rabba’s two statements: Rather, Rabba was stating an explanation for the opinion of the people of the West, Eretz Yisrael, cited earlier (125a), but he himself does not hold accordingly, as he holds that a firstborn son is not entitled to a double portion of a debt collected from land.

רַב וּשְׁמוּאֵל דְּאָמְרִי תַּרְוַיְיהוּ: מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה – אֵינוֹ גּוֹבֶה לֹא מִן הַיּוֹרְשִׁין וְלֹא מִן הַלָּקוֹחוֹת. מַאי טַעְמָא? שִׁעְבּוּדָא לָאו דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא.

The Gemara continues to discuss the issue of the extent of liens on a debtor’s property. Rav and Shmuel both say: In the case of a loan by oral contract, the creditor can collect the debt only from the one who took the loan, but not from the heirs of the debtor after his death, and not from purchasers of his property. What is the reason for this? They maintain that the property of a debtor is not liened by Torah law.

רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן וְרַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן לָקִישׁ דְּאָמְרִי תַּרְוַיְיהוּ: מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה – גּוֹבֶה בֵּין מִן הַיּוֹרְשִׁין, וּבֵין מִן הַלָּקוֹחוֹת. מַאי טַעְמָא? שִׁעְבּוּדָא דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא.

Rabbi Yoḥanan and Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish both say: In the case of a loan by oral contract, the creditor can collect the debt both from the heirs of the debtor after his death and from the purchasers of his property. What is the reason for this? They maintain that the property of a debtor is liened by Torah law.

מֵיתִיבִי: הַחוֹפֵר בּוֹר בִּרְשׁוּת הָרַבִּים, וְנָפַל עָלָיו שׁוֹר וַהֲרָגוֹ – פָּטוּר. וְלֹא עוֹד, אֶלָּא שֶׁאִם מֵת הַשּׁוֹר – יוֹרְשֵׁי בַּעַל הַבּוֹר חַיָּיבִים לְשַׁלֵּם דְּמֵי שׁוֹר לִבְעָלָיו!

The Gemara raises an objection to the opinion of Rav and Shmuel from a baraita (Tosefta, Bava Kamma 6:2): If one was digging a pit in the public domain, and an ox fell on him and killed him as he was in the pit, the owner of the ox is exempt from paying for the damage caused, as it is the one who dug the pit who is at fault. Moreover, if it occurred that the ox died as a result of the fall, the heirs of the owner of the pit are liable to pay the value of the ox to its owner. Compensation for damages is comparable to a loan by oral contract, and yet the baraita states that the heirs of the culpable party must pay it.

אָמַר רַבִּי אִלְעָא אָמַר רַב: בְּשֶׁעָמַד בַּדִּין.

Rabbi Ela says that Rav says: The baraita is discussing a case in which the one who dug the pit stood trial for the damage before he died, and once judgment is rendered by a court, the resulting financial liability is comparable to a loan with a promissory note.

וְהָא ״הֲרָגוֹ״ קָתָנֵי! אָמַר רַב אַדָּא בַּר אַהֲבָה: שֶׁעֲשָׂאוֹ טְרֵפָה.

The Gemara objects: But it is taught in the baraita that the ox killed him by falling on him. How then can one say that he stood trial? Rav Adda bar Ahava says: The baraita does not mean that the ox killed him instantly, but that it rendered him one who has a wound that will cause him to die within twelve months [tereifa], and there was enough time before his death to try him and deem him liable to pay for damages.

וְהָא אָמַר רַב נַחְמָן, תָּנֵי תַּנָּא: ״מֵת וּקְבָרוֹ״! הָתָם – דְּיָתְבִי דַּיָּינֵי אַפּוּמָּא דְבֵירָא, וְחַיְּיבוּהוּ.

The Gemara objects that there is a different version of the baraita according to which this interpretation is not possible: But doesn’t Rav Naḥman say that a certain tanna taught the baraita with a different formulation, stating that the one who dug the pit died from the impact of the ox and the ox in effect buried him in the ground at the bottom of the pit? In this scenario it would be impossible to take the one who dug the pit to court to stand trial. The Gemara answers: There, according to that second version, it is discussing a case where judges sat at the opening of the pit and deemed liable the one who dug the pit to pay for the damage before he died.

New to Talmud?

Check out our resources designed to help you navigate a page of Talmud – and study at the pace, level and style that fits you. 

The Hadran Women’s Tapestry

Meet the diverse women learning Gemara at Hadran and hear their stories. 

I’ve been studying Talmud since the ’90s, and decided to take on Daf Yomi two years ago. I wanted to attempt the challenge of a day-to-day, very Jewish activity. Some days are so interesting and some days are so boring. But I’m still here.
Sarene Shanus
Sarene Shanus

Mamaroneck, NY, United States

I started learning with rabbis. I needed to know more than the stories. My first teacher to show me “the way of the Talmud” as well as the stories was Samara Schwartz.
Michelle Farber started the new cycle 2 yrs ago and I jumped on for the ride.
I do not look back.

Jenifer Nech
Jenifer Nech

Houston, United States

It happened without intent (so am I yotzei?!) – I watched the women’s siyum live and was so moved by it that the next morning, I tuned in to Rabbanit Michelle’s shiur, and here I am, still learning every day, over 2 years later. Some days it all goes over my head, but others I grasp onto an idea or a story, and I ‘get it’ and that’s the best feeling in the world. So proud to be a Hadran learner.

Jeanne Yael Klempner
Jeanne Yael Klempner

Zichron Yaakov, Israel

In my Shana bet at Migdal Oz I attended the Hadran siyum hash”as. Witnessing so many women so passionate about their Torah learning and connection to God, I knew I had to begin with the coming cycle. My wedding (June 24) was two weeks before the siyum of mesechet yoma so I went a little ahead and was able to make a speech and siyum at my kiseh kallah on my wedding day!

Sharona Guggenheim Plumb
Sharona Guggenheim Plumb

Givat Shmuel, Israel

When I began learning Daf Yomi at the beginning of the current cycle, I was preparing for an upcoming surgery and thought that learning the Daf would be something positive I could do each day during my recovery, even if I accomplished nothing else. I had no idea what a lifeline learning the Daf would turn out to be in so many ways.

Laura Shechter
Laura Shechter

Lexington, MA, United States

After all the hype on the 2020 siyum I became inspired by a friend to begin learning as the new cycle began.with no background in studying Talmud it was a bit daunting in the beginning. my husband began at the same time so we decided to study on shabbat together. The reaction from my 3 daughters has been fantastic. They are very proud. It’s been a great challenge for my brain which is so healthy!

Stacey Goodstein Ashtamker
Stacey Goodstein Ashtamker

Modi’in, Israel

After reading the book, “ If All The Seas Were Ink “ by Ileana Kurshan I started studying Talmud. I searched and studied with several teachers until I found Michelle Farber. I have been studying with her for two years. I look forward every day to learn from her.

Janine Rubens
Janine Rubens

Virginia, United States

My first Talmud class experience was a weekly group in 1971 studying Taanit. In 2007 I resumed Talmud study with a weekly group I continue learning with. January 2020, I was inspired to try learning Daf Yomi. A friend introduced me to Daf Yomi for Women and Rabbanit Michelle Farber, I have kept with this program and look forward, G- willing, to complete the entire Shas with Hadran.
Lorri Lewis
Lorri Lewis

Palo Alto, CA, United States

I began to learn this cycle of Daf Yomi after my husband passed away 2 1/2 years ago. It seemed a good way to connect to him. Even though I don’t know whether he would have encouraged women learning Gemara, it would have opened wonderful conversations. It also gives me more depth for understanding my frum children and grandchildren. Thank you Hadran and Rabbanit Michelle Farber!!

Harriet Hartman
Harriet Hartman

Tzur Hadassah, Israel

I’ve been studying Talmud since the ’90s, and decided to take on Daf Yomi two years ago. I wanted to attempt the challenge of a day-to-day, very Jewish activity. Some days are so interesting and some days are so boring. But I’m still here.
Wendy Rozov
Wendy Rozov

Phoenix, AZ, United States

I went to day school in Toronto but really began to learn when I attended Brovenders back in the early 1980’s. Last year after talking to my sister who was learning Daf Yomi, inspired, I looked on the computer and the Hadran site came up. I have been listening to each days shiur in the morning as I work. I emphasis listening since I am not sitting with a Gamara. I listen while I work in my studio.

Rachel Rotenberg
Rachel Rotenberg

Tekoa, Israel

I started learning at the start of this cycle, and quickly fell in love. It has become such an important part of my day, enriching every part of my life.

Naomi Niederhoffer
Naomi Niederhoffer

Toronto, Canada

It has been a pleasure keeping pace with this wonderful and scholarly group of women.

Janice Block
Janice Block

Beit Shemesh, Israel

Having never learned Talmud before, I started Daf Yomi in hopes of connecting to the Rabbinic tradition, sharing a daily idea on Instagram (@dafyomiadventures). With Hadran and Sefaria, I slowly gained confidence in my skills and understanding. Now, part of the Pardes Jewish Educators Program, I can’t wait to bring this love of learning with me as I continue to pass it on to my future students.

Hannah-G-pic
Hannah Greenberg

Pennsylvania, United States

It’s hard to believe it has been over two years. Daf yomi has changed my life in so many ways and has been sustaining during this global sea change. Each day means learning something new, digging a little deeper, adding another lens, seeing worlds with new eyes. Daf has also fostered new friendships and deepened childhood connections, as long time friends have unexpectedly become havruta.

Joanna Rom
Joanna Rom

Northwest Washington, United States

I started learning Daf Yomi inspired by תָּפַסְתָּ מְרוּבֶּה לֹא תָּפַסְתָּ, תָּפַסְתָּ מוּעָט תָּפַסְתָּ. I thought I’d start the first page, and then see. I was swept up into the enthusiasm of the Hadran Siyum, and from there the momentum kept building. Rabbanit Michelle’s shiur gives me an anchor, a connection to an incredible virtual community, and an energy to face whatever the day brings.

Medinah Korn
Medinah Korn

בית שמש, Israel

I had tried to start after being inspired by the hadran siyum, but did not manage to stick to it. However, just before masechet taanit, our rav wrote a message to the shul WhatsApp encouraging people to start with masechet taanit, so I did! And this time, I’m hooked! I listen to the shiur every day , and am also trying to improve my skills.

Laura Major
Laura Major

Yad Binyamin, Israel

When I was working and taking care of my children, learning was never on the list. Now that I have more time I have two different Gemora classes and the nach yomi as well as the mishna yomi daily.

Shoshana Shinnar
Shoshana Shinnar

Jerusalem, Israel

After experiences over the years of asking to join gemara shiurim for men and either being refused by the maggid shiur or being the only women there, sometimes behind a mechitza, I found out about Hadran sometime during the tail end of Masechet Shabbat, I think. Life has been much better since then.

Madeline Cohen
Madeline Cohen

London, United Kingdom

I started learning when my brother sent me the news clip of the celebration of the last Daf Yomi cycle. I was so floored to see so many women celebrating that I wanted to be a part of it. It has been an enriching experience studying a text in a language I don’t speak, using background knowledge that I don’t have. It is stretching my learning in unexpected ways, bringing me joy and satisfaction.

Jodi Gladstone
Jodi Gladstone

Warwick, Rhode Island, United States

Bava Batra 175b

הוֹצִיא עָלָיו כְּתַב יָדוֹ שֶׁהוּא חַיָּיב לוֹ – גּוֹבֶה מִנְּכָסִים בְּנֵי חוֹרִין.

If one presents to a debtor a document in the handwriting of the debtor stating that he owes money to him, but without witnesses signed on the document, the creditor can collect only from unsold property.

עָרֵב הַיּוֹצֵא לְאַחַר חִיתּוּם שְׁטָרוֹת – גּוֹבֶה מִנְּכָסִים בְּנֵי חוֹרִין.

In the case of a guarantor whose commitment emerged after the signing of the promissory note, the creditor can collect the sum only from unsold property of the guarantor.

מַעֲשֶׂה וּבָא לִפְנֵי רַבִּי יִשְׁמָעֵאל, וְאָמַר: גּוֹבֶה מִנְּכָסִים בְּנֵי חוֹרִין. אָמַר לוֹ בֶּן נַנָּס: אֵינוֹ גּוֹבֶה לֹא מִנְּכָסִים מְשׁוּעְבָּדִים וְלֹא מִנְּכָסִים בְּנֵי חוֹרִין.

The mishna relates: An incident occurred where such a case came before Rabbi Yishmael, and he said: The creditor can collect the sum from unsold property of the guarantor, but not from liened property that he has sold to others. Ben Nannas said to Rabbi Yishmael: The creditor cannot collect the sum from the guarantor at all, not from liened property that has been sold, nor from unsold property.

אָמַר לוֹ: לָמָּה? אָמַר לוֹ: הֲרֵי הַחוֹנֵק אֶת אֶחָד בַּשּׁוּק, וּמְצָאוֹ חֲבֵירוֹ וְאָמַר לוֹ ״הַנַּח לוֹ [וַאֲנִי אֶתֵּן לָךְ]״ – פָּטוּר, שֶׁלֹּא עַל אֱמוּנָתוֹ הִלְוָהוּ. אֶלָּא אֵיזֶה הוּא עָרֵב שֶׁהוּא חַיָּיב? ״הַלְוֵהוּ, וַאֲנִי נוֹתֵן לָךְ״ – חַיָּיב, שֶׁכֵּן עַל אֱמוּנָתוֹ הִלְוָהוּ.

Rabbi Yishmael said to him: Why not? Ben Nannas said to him: If one was strangling someone in the marketplace, demanding repayment of a loan, and another person found him doing so and said to the attacker: Leave him alone and I will give you the money he owes, the person who intervened is exempt from paying, as the creditor did not loan the money in the first place based on his trust of the one who intervened. Rather, who is a guarantor who is obligated to repay the loan he has guaranteed? One who tells the creditor before the loan takes place: Lend money to him, and I will give you the repayment, as in that case the creditor did loan the money based on his trust of the guarantor.

וְאָמַר רַבִּי יִשְׁמָעֵאל: הָרוֹצֶה שֶׁיַּחְכִּים – יַעֲסוֹק בְּדִינֵי מָמוֹנוֹת; שֶׁאֵין לָךְ מִקְצוֹעַ בַּתּוֹרָה יוֹתֵר מֵהֶן, וְהֵן כְּמַעְיָין הַנּוֹבֵעַ. וְהָרוֹצֶה שֶׁיַּעֲסוֹק בְּדִינֵי מָמוֹנוֹת – יְשַׁמֵּשׁ אֶת שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן נַנָּס.

And Rabbi Yishmael thereupon said: One who wants to become wise should engage in the study of monetary law, as there is no greater discipline in the Torah, and it is like a flowing spring. And, he added, one who wants to engage in the study of monetary law should attend to, i.e., become a disciple of, Shimon ben Nannas.

גְּמָ׳ אָמַר עוּלָּא: דְּבַר תּוֹרָה – אֶחָד מִלְוֶה בִּשְׁטָר, וְאֶחָד מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה – גּוֹבֶה מִנְּכָסִים מְשׁוּעְבָּדִים. מַאי טַעְמָא? שִׁעְבּוּדָא דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא. וְאֶלָּא מַה טַּעַם אָמְרוּ מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה אֵינוֹ גּוֹבֶה אֶלָּא מִנְּכָסִין בְּנֵי חוֹרִין? מִשּׁוּם פְּסֵידָא דְלָקוֹחוֹת.

GEMARA: Ulla says: By Torah law, a creditor, whether in the case of a loan with a promissory note or the case of a loan by oral contract, can collect the debt from liened property that has been sold by the debtor subsequent to his receiving the loan. What is the reason for this? The property of a debtor at the time of the loan, even an oral loan, is liened by Torah law. And what is the reason the Sages said that one who gives a loan by oral contract can collect the debt only from unsold property? Because of the loss that would be incurred by purchasers of land if the seller’s creditors could seize the land they have purchased.

אִי הָכִי, מִלְוֶה בִּשְׁטָר נָמֵי! הָתָם, אִינְהוּ נִינְהוּ דְּאַפְסִידוּ אַנַּפְשַׁיְיהוּ.

The Gemara asks: If so, a loan with a promissory note should also not be collected from purchasers of property, as this would cause them a loss. The Gemara answers: There, in the case of a loan recorded in a promissory note, the purchasers, who neglected to investigate the financial status of the seller before purchasing land from him, brought the loss upon themselves. By contrast, loans by oral contract are often impossible to discover, even with a thorough investigation.

וְרַבָּה אָמַר: דְּבַר תּוֹרָה – אֶחָד מִלְוֶה בִּשְׁטָר וְאֶחָד מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה – אֵינוֹ גּוֹבֶה אֶלָּא מִנְּכָסִים בְּנֵי חוֹרִין. מַאי טַעְמָא? שִׁעְבּוּדָא לָאו דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא. וּמַה טַּעַם אָמְרוּ מִלְוֶה בִּשְׁטָר גּוֹבֶה מִנְּכָסִים מְשׁוּעְבָּדִים? כְּדֵי שֶׁלֹּא תִּנְעוֹל דֶּלֶת בִּפְנֵי לֹוִין.

And Rabba says: By Torah law, a creditor, whether in the case of a loan with a promissory note or the case of a loan by oral contract, can collect the debt only from the debtor’s unsold property. What is the reason for this? The property of a debtor is not liened by Torah law. And what is the reason the Sages said that one who gives a loan with a promissory note can collect the debt from liened property that has been sold? So as not to lock the door in the face of potential borrowers. If one could not collect a debt by taking liened property that has been sold, people would be hesitant to put their money at risk by lending it.

אִי הָכִי, מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה נָמֵי! הָתָם לֵית לֵיהּ קָלָא.

The Gemara asks: If that is so, that there is a desire to encourage people to lend money by granting greater power of collection to creditors, a loan by oral contract should also be collectible from liened property that has been sold. The Gemara answers: There, in the case of a loan by oral contract, it has no publicity associated with it, so that purchasers often cannot find out about it, even after a thorough investigation, and it would be an unfair burden on them to have the property purchased by them seized in such cases.

וּמִי אָמַר רַבָּה הָכִי? וְהָא אָמַר רַבָּה: גָּבוּ קַרְקַע – יֵשׁ לוֹ. גָּבוּ מָעוֹת – אֵין לוֹ!

The Gemara asks: And did Rabba really say this? But doesn’t Rabba say, in the case of a firstborn son, that if he and his brothers collected a debt from land, he has the right to receive a double portion of that payment, but if they collected a debt from money, he does not have the right to a double portion? A firstborn son is entitled to a double share of inheritance of any property that was owned by his father at the time of his death, but not to profits or income that accrue to the estate after his death. If a debt owed to the father is collected from land after his death, Rabba said that the firstborn is entitled to a double portion, indicating that the land was considered in the father’s possession even before he died, which indicates that Rabba holds that the property of a debtor is liened to a creditor by Torah law.

וְכִי תֵּימָא אֵיפוֹךְ דְּרַבָּה לְעוּלָּא וּדְעוּלָּא לְרַבָּה, וְהָא אָמַר עוּלָּא: דְּבַר תּוֹרָה, בַּעַל חוֹב דִּינֵיהּ בְּזִבּוּרִית!

And if you would say: The opinions as they were cited earlier are attributed incorrectly, and it is necessary to reverse the two opinions, and exchange the opinion of Rabba for that of Ulla, and that of Ulla for that of Rabba, there is a difficulty: But doesn’t Ulla say elsewhere: By Torah law the halakha of a creditor is to collect his debt only from inferior-quality land?

אֶלָּא רַבָּה – טַעְמָא דִּבְנֵי מַעְרְבָא קָאָמַר, וְלֵיהּ לָא סְבִירָא לֵיהּ.

The Gemara resolves the contradiction between Rabba’s two statements: Rather, Rabba was stating an explanation for the opinion of the people of the West, Eretz Yisrael, cited earlier (125a), but he himself does not hold accordingly, as he holds that a firstborn son is not entitled to a double portion of a debt collected from land.

רַב וּשְׁמוּאֵל דְּאָמְרִי תַּרְוַיְיהוּ: מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה – אֵינוֹ גּוֹבֶה לֹא מִן הַיּוֹרְשִׁין וְלֹא מִן הַלָּקוֹחוֹת. מַאי טַעְמָא? שִׁעְבּוּדָא לָאו דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא.

The Gemara continues to discuss the issue of the extent of liens on a debtor’s property. Rav and Shmuel both say: In the case of a loan by oral contract, the creditor can collect the debt only from the one who took the loan, but not from the heirs of the debtor after his death, and not from purchasers of his property. What is the reason for this? They maintain that the property of a debtor is not liened by Torah law.

רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן וְרַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן לָקִישׁ דְּאָמְרִי תַּרְוַיְיהוּ: מִלְוֶה עַל פֶּה – גּוֹבֶה בֵּין מִן הַיּוֹרְשִׁין, וּבֵין מִן הַלָּקוֹחוֹת. מַאי טַעְמָא? שִׁעְבּוּדָא דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא.

Rabbi Yoḥanan and Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish both say: In the case of a loan by oral contract, the creditor can collect the debt both from the heirs of the debtor after his death and from the purchasers of his property. What is the reason for this? They maintain that the property of a debtor is liened by Torah law.

מֵיתִיבִי: הַחוֹפֵר בּוֹר בִּרְשׁוּת הָרַבִּים, וְנָפַל עָלָיו שׁוֹר וַהֲרָגוֹ – פָּטוּר. וְלֹא עוֹד, אֶלָּא שֶׁאִם מֵת הַשּׁוֹר – יוֹרְשֵׁי בַּעַל הַבּוֹר חַיָּיבִים לְשַׁלֵּם דְּמֵי שׁוֹר לִבְעָלָיו!

The Gemara raises an objection to the opinion of Rav and Shmuel from a baraita (Tosefta, Bava Kamma 6:2): If one was digging a pit in the public domain, and an ox fell on him and killed him as he was in the pit, the owner of the ox is exempt from paying for the damage caused, as it is the one who dug the pit who is at fault. Moreover, if it occurred that the ox died as a result of the fall, the heirs of the owner of the pit are liable to pay the value of the ox to its owner. Compensation for damages is comparable to a loan by oral contract, and yet the baraita states that the heirs of the culpable party must pay it.

אָמַר רַבִּי אִלְעָא אָמַר רַב: בְּשֶׁעָמַד בַּדִּין.

Rabbi Ela says that Rav says: The baraita is discussing a case in which the one who dug the pit stood trial for the damage before he died, and once judgment is rendered by a court, the resulting financial liability is comparable to a loan with a promissory note.

וְהָא ״הֲרָגוֹ״ קָתָנֵי! אָמַר רַב אַדָּא בַּר אַהֲבָה: שֶׁעֲשָׂאוֹ טְרֵפָה.

The Gemara objects: But it is taught in the baraita that the ox killed him by falling on him. How then can one say that he stood trial? Rav Adda bar Ahava says: The baraita does not mean that the ox killed him instantly, but that it rendered him one who has a wound that will cause him to die within twelve months [tereifa], and there was enough time before his death to try him and deem him liable to pay for damages.

וְהָא אָמַר רַב נַחְמָן, תָּנֵי תַּנָּא: ״מֵת וּקְבָרוֹ״! הָתָם – דְּיָתְבִי דַּיָּינֵי אַפּוּמָּא דְבֵירָא, וְחַיְּיבוּהוּ.

The Gemara objects that there is a different version of the baraita according to which this interpretation is not possible: But doesn’t Rav Naḥman say that a certain tanna taught the baraita with a different formulation, stating that the one who dug the pit died from the impact of the ox and the ox in effect buried him in the ground at the bottom of the pit? In this scenario it would be impossible to take the one who dug the pit to court to stand trial. The Gemara answers: There, according to that second version, it is discussing a case where judges sat at the opening of the pit and deemed liable the one who dug the pit to pay for the damage before he died.

Want to follow content and continue where you left off?

Create an account today to track your progress, mark what you’ve learned, and follow the shiurim that speak to you.

Clear all items from this list?

This will remove ALL the items in this section. You will lose any progress or history connected to them. This is irreversible.

Cancel
Yes, clear all

Are you sure you want to delete this item?

You will lose any progress or history connected to this item.

Cancel
Yes, delete