If one has meat and he didn’t watch it, it’s possible a raven came and swapped it with another piece of non kosher meat. However one can rely on saying he/she recognizes that it was the same piece or by identifiable features (simanim). In what situations do we trust one who claims to recognize something more than one who uses simanim to identify? In what areas of halacha do we not allow one to claim he/she recognizes it? Does one need to remove the entire nerve or just the part near the “spoon of the thigh”? Does one need to eat an olive bulk in order to receive lashes? If the nerve was cooked with the thigh, it forbids the thigh if the flavor permeated. How does one assess? What if the scitic nerve was cooked with other permitted nerves?
Chullin 96
03.03.2019 | כ״ו באדר א׳ תשע״ט
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Chullin 96
וְלָא מַהְדְּרִינַן בִּטְבִיעוּת עֵינָא. הַשְׁתָּא דִּשְׁמַעְתִּינְהוּ לְהָנֵי שְׁמַעְתָּתָא, אָמֵינָא: טְבִיעוּת עֵינָא עֲדִיפָא.
but we do not return a lost item to one who claims to be its owner based solely on visual recognition. But now that I have heard these statements pertaining to meat or sky-blue wool that were obscured from sight and then permitted based upon visual recognition, I say that visual recognition is preferable to a distinguishing mark.
דְּאִי לָא תֵּימָא הָכִי, הֵיאַךְ סוֹמֵא מוּתָּר בְּאִשְׁתּוֹ, וּבְנֵי אָדָם אֵיךְ מוּתָּרִין בִּנְשׁוֹתֵיהֶן בַּלַּיְלָה? אֶלָּא בִּטְבִיעוּת עֵינָא דְּקָלָא, הָכָא נָמֵי בִּטְבִיעוּת עֵינָא.
Furthermore, one must hold that sensory recognition is reliable even without identifying marks, for if you do not say so, how is it that a blind man permitted to engage in sexual intercourse with his wife despite the fact that he cannot identify her by means of her identifying marks? And similarly, how are any men permitted to engage in intercourse with their wives at night, when it is dark and they cannot see their wives’ identifying marks? Rather, one must say that they identify their wives based on voice recognition. Here too, in these cases of lost meat and sky-blue wool, they remain permitted based on visual recognition.
אָמַר רַב יִצְחָק בְּרֵיהּ דְּרַב מְשַׁרְשְׁיָא: תֵּדַע, דְּאִילּוּ אָתוּ בִּתְרֵי וְאָמְרִי: פְּלָנְיָא, דְּהַאי סִימָנֵיהּ וְהַאי סִימָנֵיהּ, קְטַל נַפְשָׁא – לָא קָטְלִינַן לֵיהּ, וְאִילּוּ אָמְרִי: אִית לַן טְבִיעוּת עֵינָא בְּגַוֵּיהּ – קָטְלִינַן לֵיהּ.
Rav Yitzḥak, son of Rav Mesharshiyya, said: You can know that visual recognition is preferable to a distinguishing mark, because if two witnesses come to court and say: So-and-so, who has this distinguishing mark and that distinguishing mark, killed a person, we would not kill him based on this testimony. But if the two witnesses say: We have visual recognition of him, and they confirm that the accused individual committed murder, we kill him based on their testimony.
אָמַר רַב אָשֵׁי: תֵּדַע, דְּאִילּוּ אָמַר לֵיהּ אִינִישׁ לִשְׁלוּחֵיהּ: קַרְיֵיהּ לִפְלָנְיָא, דְּהַאי סִימָנֵיהּ וְהַאי סִימָנֵיהּ – סָפֵק יָדַע לֵיהּ, סָפֵק לָא יָדַע לֵיהּ, וְאִילּוּ אִית לֵיהּ טְבִיעוּת עֵינָא בְּגַוֵּיהּ – כִּי חָזֵי לֵיהּ, יָדַע לֵיהּ.
Rav Ashi said: You can know that visual recognition is preferable to a distinguishing mark, because if a man says to his agent: Call so-and-so, who has this distinguishing mark and that distinguishing mark, it is uncertain whether the agent will recognize him and know whom to call or whether he will not know him. But if he has visual recognition of him, when he sees him he will know it is him.
מַתְנִי׳ הַנּוֹטֵל גִּיד הַנָּשֶׁה, צָרִיךְ שֶׁיִּטּוֹל אֶת כּוּלּוֹ. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר: כְּדֵי לְקַיֵּים בּוֹ מִצְוַת נְטִילָה.
MISHNA: One who removes the sciatic nerve must scrape away the flesh in the area surrounding the nerve to ensure that he will remove all of it. Rabbi Yehuda says: Scraping is not required; it is sufficient to excise it from the area above the rounded protrusion in order to thereby fulfill the mitzva of removal of the sciatic nerve.
הָאוֹכֵל מִגִּיד הַנָּשֶׁה כְּזַיִת – סוֹפֵג אַרְבָּעִים. אֲכָלוֹ וְאֵין בּוֹ כְּזַיִת – חַיָּיב. אָכַל מִזֶּה כְּזַיִת וּמִזֶּה כְּזַיִת – סוֹפֵג שְׁמוֹנִים. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר: אֵינוֹ סוֹפֵג אֶלָּא אַרְבָּעִים.
One who eats an olive-bulk of the sciatic nerve incurs forty lashes. If one eats an entire sciatic nerve and it does not constitute an olive-bulk, he is nevertheless liable to receive lashes, because a complete sciatic nerve is a complete entity. If one ate an olive-bulk from this sciatic nerve in the right leg, and an olive-bulk from that sciatic nerve in the left leg, he incurs [sofeg] eighty lashes. Rabbi Yehuda says: He incurs only forty lashes, for eating the olive-bulk from the right leg, and he is exempt for eating the olive-bulk from the left leg.
גְּמָ׳ בַּר פָּיוֹלֵי הֲוָה קָאֵי קַמֵּיהּ דִּשְׁמוּאֵל, וְקָא מְנַקַּר אַטְמָא. הֲוָה קָא גָאֵים לֵיהּ, אֲמַר לֵיהּ: חוֹת בֵּיהּ טְפֵי, הַשְׁתָּא לָא חֲזֵיתָךְ – סְפֵית לִי אִיסּוּרָא!
GEMARA: A man known as bar Peyoli was standing before Shmuel and was removing the sciatic nerve from the leg of an animal. He was cutting out the nerve without scraping away the surrounding flesh, in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda. Shmuel said to him: Go down further and scrape away the flesh in order to remove the entire nerve. Now, if I would not have seen you and instructed you in the process of removing the sciatic nerve, you would have fed me forbidden meat.
אִירְתַת, נְפַל סַכִּינָא מִידֵיהּ. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: לָא תִּירְתַת, דְּאוֹרִי לָךְ כְּרַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹרִי לָךְ.
Bar Peyoli became afraid due to Shmuel’s rebuke and the knife fell from his hand. Shmuel said to him: Do not be afraid. I do not think that you are an ignoramus or a wicked person. You are removing the sciatic nerve as you were taught; the person who taught you must hold in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda, and this is how he taught you to remove the sciatic nerve. But I hold that the entire sciatic nerve must be removed, in accordance with the opinion of the first tanna.
אָמַר רַב שֵׁשֶׁת: מַאי דִּשְׁקַל בַּר פָּיוֹלֵי – דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא, לְרַבִּי יְהוּדָה. מִכְּלָל דְּשַׁיַּיר – דְּרַבָּנַן, לְרַבִּי יְהוּדָה. אֶלָּא, דְּאוֹרִי לֵיהּ כְּמַאן אוֹרִי לֵיהּ?
Rav Sheshet said in explanation of this incident: That which bar Peyoli removed was the section of the sciatic nerve one is required to remove by Torah law according to the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda. The Gemara asks: Based upon this statement, one can derive by inference that he left behind the section of the sciatic nerve one is required to remove by rabbinic law according to the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda. But if so, in accordance with whose opinion did the person who taught him how to remove the sciatic nerve teach him? Even according to Rabbi Yehuda he would have transgressed a rabbinic prohibition.
אֶלָּא אָמַר רַב שֵׁשֶׁת: מַאי דִּשְׁקַל בַּר פָּיוֹלֵי – דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא, וּמַאי דְּשַׁיַּיר – דְּרַבָּנַן, לְרַבִּי מֵאִיר; דְּאִי רַבִּי יְהוּדָה – אֲפִילּוּ מִדְּרַבָּנַן שְׁרֵי.
Rather, Rav Sheshet said: That which bar Peyoli removed was the section of the sciatic nerve that is forbidden by Torah law. And that which he left over is forbidden by rabbinic law according to the opinion of Rabbi Meir, as explained above (92b) in a baraita; as if one were to follow the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda, the section that bar Peyoli left over is permitted even by rabbinic law.
הָאוֹכֵל מִגִּיד הַנָּשֶׁה [וְכוּ׳]. אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: לֹא אָסְרָה תּוֹרָה אֶלָּא שֶׁעַל הַכַּף בִּלְבַד, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״עַל כַּף הַיָּרֵךְ״.
§ The mishna teaches: One who eats an olive-bulk of the sciatic nerve incurs forty lashes. Shmuel says: The Torah prohibits only the part of the sciatic nerve that is on the rounded protrusion of flesh shaped like a spoon that is near the end of the femur. This is as it is stated in the verse: “Therefore the children of Israel eat not the sciatic nerve that is upon the spoon of the thigh” (Genesis 32:33).
אָמַר רַב פָּפָּא: כְּתַנָּאֵי, אֲכָלוֹ וְאֵין בּוֹ כְּזַיִת – חַיָּיב. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר: עַד שֶׁיְּהֵא בּוֹ כְּזַיִת.
Rav Pappa says: This statement of Shmuel is subject to a dispute between tanna’im, as it is taught in a baraita: If one ate the entire sciatic nerve and it did not contain an olive-bulk, he is nevertheless liable to be flogged. Rabbi Yehuda says: He is not liable unless it has a volume of at least an olive-bulk.
מַאי טַעְמָא דְּרַבָּנַן? בְּרִיָּה (בִּפְנֵי עַצְמָהּ) הִיא.
Rav Pappa explains how this relates to Shmuel’s statement. What is the reason for the opinion of the Rabbis, who disagree with Rabbi Yehuda? They hold that the sciatic nerve is a distinct entity. Therefore, even if one eats less than an olive-bulk it is a significant act of eating, and one is liable.
וְרַבִּי יְהוּדָה – אֲכִילָה כְּתִיבָה בֵּיהּ, וְרַבָּנַן – הַהִיא אֲכִילָה דְּכִי אִית בֵּיהּ אַרְבָּעָה וַחֲמִשָּׁה זֵיתִים וַאֲכַל חַד כְּזַיִת מִיחַיַּיב.
And what does Rabbi Yehuda hold? He holds that since the term: Eating, is written with regard to the sciatic nerve, and a significant act of eating is generally defined as eating an olive-bulk, one is liable only if he eats an olive-bulk. And what do the Rabbis derive from this term? That usage of the term eating indicates that in a case where the sciatic nerve contains four or five olive-bulks and one ate only one olive-bulk, he is liable. Nevertheless, if one eats the entire sciatic nerve, he is liable even if it contains less than an olive-bulk.
וְרַבִּי יְהוּדָה, מֵ״אֲשֶׁר עַל כַּף הַיָּרֵךְ״ נָפְקָא.
And according to Rabbi Yehuda, from where is it derived that one is liable for eating one olive-bulk of a larger sciatic nerve? He holds that it is derived from the phrase “that is upon the spoon of the thigh,” which indicates that even if one eats only the part of the sciatic nerve that is upon the spoon of the thigh, rather than the entire sciatic nerve, he is liable.
וְרַבָּנַן, הַהוּא מִיבְּעֵי לֵיהּ לִכְדִשְׁמוּאֵל, דְּאָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: לֹא אָסְרָה תּוֹרָה אֶלָּא שֶׁעַל כַּף הַיָּרֵךְ. וְרַבִּי יְהוּדָה – ״הַיָּרֵךְ״ כְּתִיב, דְּכוּלַּהּ יָרֵךְ.
And how do the Rabbis interpret that phrase? That phrase is necessary to teach the halakha stated by Shmuel, as Shmuel said: The Torah prohibits only the part of the sciatic nerve that is on the rounded protrusion of flesh shaped like a spoon. And what does Rabbi Yehuda hold with regard to the halakha stated by Shmuel? He derives from the fact that it is written: “The spoon of the thigh,” that the sciatic nerve of the entire thigh is forbidden, not just the part that is on the rounded protrusion of flesh shaped like a spoon.
וְרַבָּנַן, הַהוּא דְּפָשֵׁיט אִיסּוּרֵיהּ בְּכוּלַּיהּ יָרֵךְ, לְאַפּוֹקֵי חִיצוֹן דְּלָא, וּלְעוֹלָם שֶׁעַל הַכַּף.
And how do the Rabbis interpret “the spoon of the thigh”? According to the Rabbis, this expression indicates that the prohibition of the sciatic nerve applies to the nerve that extends throughout the entire thigh, i.e., the inner nerve, which serves to exclude the outer nerve, which is not forbidden by Torah law; but in fact, only the part of the inner nerve that is on the protrusion of flesh shaped like a spoon is forbidden, not the entire inner nerve.
וְהַאי ״כַּף״ מִיבְּעֵי לֵיהּ לְמַעוֹטֵי עוֹף, דְּלֵית לֵיהּ כַּף! תְּרֵי ״כַּף״ כְּתִיבִי.
The Gemara objects: But this term “spoon” is required to exclude the sciatic nerve of a bird, which does not have a rounded protrusion on its thigh bone that can be described as the spoon of the thigh, as taught in the mishna (89b). The Gemara explains: There are two usages of the term “spoon” written in the verse, and therefore two separate halakhot can be derived from this term.
מַתְנִי׳ יָרֵךְ שֶׁנִּתְבַּשֵּׁל בָּהּ גִּיד הַנָּשֶׁה, אִם יֵשׁ בָּהּ בְּנוֹתֵן טַעַם – הֲרֵי זוֹ אֲסוּרָה. כֵּיצַד מְשַׁעֲרִין אוֹתָהּ? כְּבָשָׂר בְּלֶפֶת.
MISHNA: In the case of a thigh that was cooked with the sciatic nerve in it, if there is enough of the sciatic nerve in it to impart its flavor to the thigh, the entire thigh is forbidden for consumption. How does one measure whether there is enough sciatic nerve to impart flavor to the meat of the entire thigh? One relates to it as though the sciatic nerve were meat imparting flavor to a turnip. If meat the volume of the sciatic nerve would impart flavor to a turnip the volume of the thigh when they were cooked together, then the entire thigh is forbidden.
גִּיד הַנָּשֶׁה שֶׁנִּתְבַּשֵּׁל עִם הַגִּידִים, בִּזְמַן שֶׁמַּכִּירוֹ – בְּנוֹתֵן טַעַם, וְאִם לָאו – כּוּלָּן אֲסוּרִין, וְהָרוֹטֶב בְּנוֹתֵן טַעַם.
With regard to a sciatic nerve that was cooked with other sinews, when one identifies the sciatic nerve and removes it, the other sinews are forbidden if the sciatic nerve was large enough to impart flavor. And if he does not identify it, all the sinews are forbidden because each one could be the sciatic nerve; but the broth is forbidden only if the sciatic nerve imparts flavor to the broth.
וְכֵן חֲתִיכָה שֶׁל נְבֵלָה, וְכֵן חֲתִיכָה שֶׁל דָּג טָמֵא שֶׁנִּתְבַּשְּׁלָה עִם הַחֲתִיכוֹת, בִּזְמַן שֶׁמַּכִּירָן – בְּנוֹתֵן טַעַם, וְאִם לָאו – כּוּלָּן אֲסוּרוֹת, וְהָרוֹטֶב בְּנוֹתֵן טַעַם.
And similarly, in the case of a piece of an animal carcass or a piece of non-kosher fish that was cooked with similar pieces of kosher meat or fish, when one identifies the forbidden piece and removes it, the rest of the meat or fish is forbidden only if the forbidden piece was large enough to impart flavor to the entire mixture. And if he does not identify and remove the forbidden piece, all the pieces are forbidden, due to the possibility that each piece one selects might be the forbidden piece; but the broth is forbidden only if the forbidden piece imparts flavor to the broth.
גְּמָ׳ אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: לֹא שָׁנוּ אֶלָּא שֶׁנִּתְבַּשֵּׁל בָּהּ, אֲבָל נִצְלָה בָּהּ – קוֹלֵף וְאוֹכֵל עַד שֶׁמַּגִּיעַ לַגִּיד.
GEMARA: The mishna teaches that a thigh that was cooked with the sciatic nerve is forbidden if the nerve imparts flavor to the thigh. Shmuel says: The Sages taught that the thigh is entirely forbidden only when it was cooked with the sciatic nerve inside it. But if the sciatic nerve was roasted inside the thigh, one may peel away the meat and eat it until he reaches the sciatic nerve, and then he removes the nerve.
אִינִי? וְהָאָמַר רַב הוּנָא: גְּדִי שֶׁצְּלָאוֹ בְּחֶלְבּוֹ – אָסוּר לֶאֱכוֹל אֲפִילּוּ מֵרֹאשׁ אׇזְנוֹ!
The Gemara challenges: Is that so? But doesn’t Rav Huna say: With regard to a kid that was roasted with its forbidden fat, it is prohibited to eat any part of the animal, even from the top of its ear? This proves that roasting, like cooking, spreads the flavor of the forbidden fat throughout the entire animal.
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Vitti Kones
מיתר, ישראל
I started my journey on the day I realized that the Siyum was happening in Yerushalayim and I was missing out. What? I told myself. How could I have not known about this? How can I have missed out on this opportunity? I decided that moment, I would start Daf Yomi and Nach Yomi the very next day. I am so grateful to Hadran. I am changed forever because I learn Gemara with women. Thank you.
Linda Brownstein
Mitspe, Israel
Last cycle, I listened to parts of various מסכתות. When the הדרן סיום was advertised, I listened to Michelle on נידה. I knew that בע”ה with the next cycle I was in (ב”נ). As I entered the סיום (early), I saw the signs and was overcome with emotion. I was randomly seated in the front row, and I cried many times that night. My choice to learn דף יומי was affirmed. It is one of the best I have made!
Miriam Tannenbaum
אפרת, Israel
I learned Mishnayot more than twenty years ago and started with Gemara much later in life. Although I never managed to learn Daf Yomi consistently, I am learning since some years Gemara in depth and with much joy. Since last year I am studying at the International Halakha Scholars Program at the WIHL. I often listen to Rabbanit Farbers Gemara shiurim to understand better a specific sugyiah. I am grateful for the help and inspiration!
Shoshana Ruerup
Berlin, Germany
After reading the book, “ If All The Seas Were Ink “ by Ileana Kurshan I started studying Talmud. I searched and studied with several teachers until I found Michelle Farber. I have been studying with her for two years. I look forward every day to learn from her.
Janine Rubens
Virginia, United States
I started learning at the beginning of the cycle after a friend persuaded me that it would be right up my alley. I was lucky enough to learn at Rabbanit Michelle’s house before it started on zoom and it was quickly part of my daily routine. I find it so important to see for myself where halachot were derived, where stories were told and to get more insight into how the Rabbis interacted.
Deborah Dickson
Ra’anana, Israel
I was moved to tears by the Hadran Siyyum HaShas. I have learned Torah all my life, but never connected to learning Gemara on a regular basis until then. Seeing the sheer joy Talmud Torah at the siyyum, I felt compelled to be part of it, and I haven’t missed a day!
It’s not always easy, but it is so worthwhile, and it has strengthened my love of learning. It is part of my life now.
Michelle Lewis
Beit Shemesh, Israel
With Rabbanit Dr. Naomi Cohen in the Women’s Talmud class, over 30 years ago. It was a “known” class and it was accepted, because of who taught. Since then I have also studied with Avigail Gross-Gelman and Dr. Gabriel Hazut for about a year). Years ago, in a shiur in my shul, I did know about Persians doing 3 things with their clothes on. They opened the shiur to woman after that!
Sharon Mink
Haifa, Israel
תמיד רציתי. למדתי גמרא בבית ספר בטורונטו קנדה. עליתי ארצה ולמדתי שזה לא מקובל. הופתעתי.
יצאתי לגימלאות לפני שנתיים וזה מאפשר את המחוייבות לדף יומי.
עבורי ההתמדה בלימוד מעגן אותי בקשר שלי ליהדות. אני תמיד מחפשת ותמיד. מוצאת מקור לקשר. ללימוד חדש ומחדש. קשר עם נשים לומדות מעמיק את החוויה ומשמעותית מאוד.
Vitti Kones
מיתר, ישראל
I’ve been learning since January 2020, and in June I started drawing a phrase from each daf. Sometimes it’s easy (e.g. plants), sometimes it’s very hard (e.g. korbanot), and sometimes it’s loads of fun (e.g. bird racing) to find something to draw. I upload my pictures from each masechet to #DafYomiArt. I am enjoying every step of the journey.
Gila Loike
Ashdod, Israel
It happened without intent (so am I yotzei?!) – I watched the women’s siyum live and was so moved by it that the next morning, I tuned in to Rabbanit Michelle’s shiur, and here I am, still learning every day, over 2 years later. Some days it all goes over my head, but others I grasp onto an idea or a story, and I ‘get it’ and that’s the best feeling in the world. So proud to be a Hadran learner.
Jeanne Yael Klempner
Zichron Yaakov, Israel
When I started studying Hebrew at Brown University’s Hillel, I had no idea that almost 38 years later, I’m doing Daf Yomi. My Shabbat haburah is led by Rabbanit Leah Sarna. The women are a hoot. I’m tracking the completion of each tractate by reading Ilana Kurshan’s memoir, If All the Seas Were Ink.
Hannah Lee
Pennsylvania, United States
I am grateful for the structure of the Daf Yomi. When I am freer to learn to my heart’s content, I learn other passages in addition. But even in times of difficulty, I always know that I can rely on the structure and social support of Daf Yomi learners all over the world.
I am also grateful for this forum. It is very helpful to learn with a group of enthusiastic and committed women.
Janice Block
Beit Shemesh, Israel
Shortly after the death of my father, David Malik z”l, I made the commitment to Daf Yomi. While riding to Ben Gurion airport in January, Siyum HaShas was playing on the radio; that was the nudge I needed to get started. The “everyday-ness” of the Daf has been a meaningful spiritual practice, especial after COVID began & I was temporarily unable to say Kaddish at daily in-person minyanim.
Lisa S. Malik
Wynnewood, United States
I started learning Jan 2020 when I heard the new cycle was starting. I had tried during the last cycle and didn’t make it past a few weeks. Learning online from old men didn’t speak to my soul and I knew Talmud had to be a soul journey for me. Enter Hadran! Talmud from Rabbanit Michelle Farber from a woman’s perspective, a mother’s perspective and a modern perspective. Motivated to continue!
Keren Carter
Brentwood, California, United States
I started the daf at the beginning of this cycle in January 2020. My husband, my children, grandchildren and siblings have been very supportive. As someone who learned and taught Tanach and mefarshim for many years, it has been an amazing adventure to complete the six sedarim of Mishnah, and now to study Talmud on a daily basis along with Rabbanit Michelle and the wonderful women of Hadran.
Rookie Billet
Jerusalem, Israel
Chullin 96
וְלָא מַהְדְּרִינַן בִּטְבִיעוּת עֵינָא. הַשְׁתָּא דִּשְׁמַעְתִּינְהוּ לְהָנֵי שְׁמַעְתָּתָא, אָמֵינָא: טְבִיעוּת עֵינָא עֲדִיפָא.
but we do not return a lost item to one who claims to be its owner based solely on visual recognition. But now that I have heard these statements pertaining to meat or sky-blue wool that were obscured from sight and then permitted based upon visual recognition, I say that visual recognition is preferable to a distinguishing mark.
דְּאִי לָא תֵּימָא הָכִי, הֵיאַךְ סוֹמֵא מוּתָּר בְּאִשְׁתּוֹ, וּבְנֵי אָדָם אֵיךְ מוּתָּרִין בִּנְשׁוֹתֵיהֶן בַּלַּיְלָה? אֶלָּא בִּטְבִיעוּת עֵינָא דְּקָלָא, הָכָא נָמֵי בִּטְבִיעוּת עֵינָא.
Furthermore, one must hold that sensory recognition is reliable even without identifying marks, for if you do not say so, how is it that a blind man permitted to engage in sexual intercourse with his wife despite the fact that he cannot identify her by means of her identifying marks? And similarly, how are any men permitted to engage in intercourse with their wives at night, when it is dark and they cannot see their wives’ identifying marks? Rather, one must say that they identify their wives based on voice recognition. Here too, in these cases of lost meat and sky-blue wool, they remain permitted based on visual recognition.
אָמַר רַב יִצְחָק בְּרֵיהּ דְּרַב מְשַׁרְשְׁיָא: תֵּדַע, דְּאִילּוּ אָתוּ בִּתְרֵי וְאָמְרִי: פְּלָנְיָא, דְּהַאי סִימָנֵיהּ וְהַאי סִימָנֵיהּ, קְטַל נַפְשָׁא – לָא קָטְלִינַן לֵיהּ, וְאִילּוּ אָמְרִי: אִית לַן טְבִיעוּת עֵינָא בְּגַוֵּיהּ – קָטְלִינַן לֵיהּ.
Rav Yitzḥak, son of Rav Mesharshiyya, said: You can know that visual recognition is preferable to a distinguishing mark, because if two witnesses come to court and say: So-and-so, who has this distinguishing mark and that distinguishing mark, killed a person, we would not kill him based on this testimony. But if the two witnesses say: We have visual recognition of him, and they confirm that the accused individual committed murder, we kill him based on their testimony.
אָמַר רַב אָשֵׁי: תֵּדַע, דְּאִילּוּ אָמַר לֵיהּ אִינִישׁ לִשְׁלוּחֵיהּ: קַרְיֵיהּ לִפְלָנְיָא, דְּהַאי סִימָנֵיהּ וְהַאי סִימָנֵיהּ – סָפֵק יָדַע לֵיהּ, סָפֵק לָא יָדַע לֵיהּ, וְאִילּוּ אִית לֵיהּ טְבִיעוּת עֵינָא בְּגַוֵּיהּ – כִּי חָזֵי לֵיהּ, יָדַע לֵיהּ.
Rav Ashi said: You can know that visual recognition is preferable to a distinguishing mark, because if a man says to his agent: Call so-and-so, who has this distinguishing mark and that distinguishing mark, it is uncertain whether the agent will recognize him and know whom to call or whether he will not know him. But if he has visual recognition of him, when he sees him he will know it is him.
מַתְנִי׳ הַנּוֹטֵל גִּיד הַנָּשֶׁה, צָרִיךְ שֶׁיִּטּוֹל אֶת כּוּלּוֹ. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר: כְּדֵי לְקַיֵּים בּוֹ מִצְוַת נְטִילָה.
MISHNA: One who removes the sciatic nerve must scrape away the flesh in the area surrounding the nerve to ensure that he will remove all of it. Rabbi Yehuda says: Scraping is not required; it is sufficient to excise it from the area above the rounded protrusion in order to thereby fulfill the mitzva of removal of the sciatic nerve.
הָאוֹכֵל מִגִּיד הַנָּשֶׁה כְּזַיִת – סוֹפֵג אַרְבָּעִים. אֲכָלוֹ וְאֵין בּוֹ כְּזַיִת – חַיָּיב. אָכַל מִזֶּה כְּזַיִת וּמִזֶּה כְּזַיִת – סוֹפֵג שְׁמוֹנִים. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר: אֵינוֹ סוֹפֵג אֶלָּא אַרְבָּעִים.
One who eats an olive-bulk of the sciatic nerve incurs forty lashes. If one eats an entire sciatic nerve and it does not constitute an olive-bulk, he is nevertheless liable to receive lashes, because a complete sciatic nerve is a complete entity. If one ate an olive-bulk from this sciatic nerve in the right leg, and an olive-bulk from that sciatic nerve in the left leg, he incurs [sofeg] eighty lashes. Rabbi Yehuda says: He incurs only forty lashes, for eating the olive-bulk from the right leg, and he is exempt for eating the olive-bulk from the left leg.
גְּמָ׳ בַּר פָּיוֹלֵי הֲוָה קָאֵי קַמֵּיהּ דִּשְׁמוּאֵל, וְקָא מְנַקַּר אַטְמָא. הֲוָה קָא גָאֵים לֵיהּ, אֲמַר לֵיהּ: חוֹת בֵּיהּ טְפֵי, הַשְׁתָּא לָא חֲזֵיתָךְ – סְפֵית לִי אִיסּוּרָא!
GEMARA: A man known as bar Peyoli was standing before Shmuel and was removing the sciatic nerve from the leg of an animal. He was cutting out the nerve without scraping away the surrounding flesh, in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda. Shmuel said to him: Go down further and scrape away the flesh in order to remove the entire nerve. Now, if I would not have seen you and instructed you in the process of removing the sciatic nerve, you would have fed me forbidden meat.
אִירְתַת, נְפַל סַכִּינָא מִידֵיהּ. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: לָא תִּירְתַת, דְּאוֹרִי לָךְ כְּרַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹרִי לָךְ.
Bar Peyoli became afraid due to Shmuel’s rebuke and the knife fell from his hand. Shmuel said to him: Do not be afraid. I do not think that you are an ignoramus or a wicked person. You are removing the sciatic nerve as you were taught; the person who taught you must hold in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda, and this is how he taught you to remove the sciatic nerve. But I hold that the entire sciatic nerve must be removed, in accordance with the opinion of the first tanna.
אָמַר רַב שֵׁשֶׁת: מַאי דִּשְׁקַל בַּר פָּיוֹלֵי – דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא, לְרַבִּי יְהוּדָה. מִכְּלָל דְּשַׁיַּיר – דְּרַבָּנַן, לְרַבִּי יְהוּדָה. אֶלָּא, דְּאוֹרִי לֵיהּ כְּמַאן אוֹרִי לֵיהּ?
Rav Sheshet said in explanation of this incident: That which bar Peyoli removed was the section of the sciatic nerve one is required to remove by Torah law according to the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda. The Gemara asks: Based upon this statement, one can derive by inference that he left behind the section of the sciatic nerve one is required to remove by rabbinic law according to the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda. But if so, in accordance with whose opinion did the person who taught him how to remove the sciatic nerve teach him? Even according to Rabbi Yehuda he would have transgressed a rabbinic prohibition.
אֶלָּא אָמַר רַב שֵׁשֶׁת: מַאי דִּשְׁקַל בַּר פָּיוֹלֵי – דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא, וּמַאי דְּשַׁיַּיר – דְּרַבָּנַן, לְרַבִּי מֵאִיר; דְּאִי רַבִּי יְהוּדָה – אֲפִילּוּ מִדְּרַבָּנַן שְׁרֵי.
Rather, Rav Sheshet said: That which bar Peyoli removed was the section of the sciatic nerve that is forbidden by Torah law. And that which he left over is forbidden by rabbinic law according to the opinion of Rabbi Meir, as explained above (92b) in a baraita; as if one were to follow the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda, the section that bar Peyoli left over is permitted even by rabbinic law.
הָאוֹכֵל מִגִּיד הַנָּשֶׁה [וְכוּ׳]. אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: לֹא אָסְרָה תּוֹרָה אֶלָּא שֶׁעַל הַכַּף בִּלְבַד, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״עַל כַּף הַיָּרֵךְ״.
§ The mishna teaches: One who eats an olive-bulk of the sciatic nerve incurs forty lashes. Shmuel says: The Torah prohibits only the part of the sciatic nerve that is on the rounded protrusion of flesh shaped like a spoon that is near the end of the femur. This is as it is stated in the verse: “Therefore the children of Israel eat not the sciatic nerve that is upon the spoon of the thigh” (Genesis 32:33).
אָמַר רַב פָּפָּא: כְּתַנָּאֵי, אֲכָלוֹ וְאֵין בּוֹ כְּזַיִת – חַיָּיב. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר: עַד שֶׁיְּהֵא בּוֹ כְּזַיִת.
Rav Pappa says: This statement of Shmuel is subject to a dispute between tanna’im, as it is taught in a baraita: If one ate the entire sciatic nerve and it did not contain an olive-bulk, he is nevertheless liable to be flogged. Rabbi Yehuda says: He is not liable unless it has a volume of at least an olive-bulk.
מַאי טַעְמָא דְּרַבָּנַן? בְּרִיָּה (בִּפְנֵי עַצְמָהּ) הִיא.
Rav Pappa explains how this relates to Shmuel’s statement. What is the reason for the opinion of the Rabbis, who disagree with Rabbi Yehuda? They hold that the sciatic nerve is a distinct entity. Therefore, even if one eats less than an olive-bulk it is a significant act of eating, and one is liable.
וְרַבִּי יְהוּדָה – אֲכִילָה כְּתִיבָה בֵּיהּ, וְרַבָּנַן – הַהִיא אֲכִילָה דְּכִי אִית בֵּיהּ אַרְבָּעָה וַחֲמִשָּׁה זֵיתִים וַאֲכַל חַד כְּזַיִת מִיחַיַּיב.
And what does Rabbi Yehuda hold? He holds that since the term: Eating, is written with regard to the sciatic nerve, and a significant act of eating is generally defined as eating an olive-bulk, one is liable only if he eats an olive-bulk. And what do the Rabbis derive from this term? That usage of the term eating indicates that in a case where the sciatic nerve contains four or five olive-bulks and one ate only one olive-bulk, he is liable. Nevertheless, if one eats the entire sciatic nerve, he is liable even if it contains less than an olive-bulk.
וְרַבִּי יְהוּדָה, מֵ״אֲשֶׁר עַל כַּף הַיָּרֵךְ״ נָפְקָא.
And according to Rabbi Yehuda, from where is it derived that one is liable for eating one olive-bulk of a larger sciatic nerve? He holds that it is derived from the phrase “that is upon the spoon of the thigh,” which indicates that even if one eats only the part of the sciatic nerve that is upon the spoon of the thigh, rather than the entire sciatic nerve, he is liable.
וְרַבָּנַן, הַהוּא מִיבְּעֵי לֵיהּ לִכְדִשְׁמוּאֵל, דְּאָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: לֹא אָסְרָה תּוֹרָה אֶלָּא שֶׁעַל כַּף הַיָּרֵךְ. וְרַבִּי יְהוּדָה – ״הַיָּרֵךְ״ כְּתִיב, דְּכוּלַּהּ יָרֵךְ.
And how do the Rabbis interpret that phrase? That phrase is necessary to teach the halakha stated by Shmuel, as Shmuel said: The Torah prohibits only the part of the sciatic nerve that is on the rounded protrusion of flesh shaped like a spoon. And what does Rabbi Yehuda hold with regard to the halakha stated by Shmuel? He derives from the fact that it is written: “The spoon of the thigh,” that the sciatic nerve of the entire thigh is forbidden, not just the part that is on the rounded protrusion of flesh shaped like a spoon.
וְרַבָּנַן, הַהוּא דְּפָשֵׁיט אִיסּוּרֵיהּ בְּכוּלַּיהּ יָרֵךְ, לְאַפּוֹקֵי חִיצוֹן דְּלָא, וּלְעוֹלָם שֶׁעַל הַכַּף.
And how do the Rabbis interpret “the spoon of the thigh”? According to the Rabbis, this expression indicates that the prohibition of the sciatic nerve applies to the nerve that extends throughout the entire thigh, i.e., the inner nerve, which serves to exclude the outer nerve, which is not forbidden by Torah law; but in fact, only the part of the inner nerve that is on the protrusion of flesh shaped like a spoon is forbidden, not the entire inner nerve.
וְהַאי ״כַּף״ מִיבְּעֵי לֵיהּ לְמַעוֹטֵי עוֹף, דְּלֵית לֵיהּ כַּף! תְּרֵי ״כַּף״ כְּתִיבִי.
The Gemara objects: But this term “spoon” is required to exclude the sciatic nerve of a bird, which does not have a rounded protrusion on its thigh bone that can be described as the spoon of the thigh, as taught in the mishna (89b). The Gemara explains: There are two usages of the term “spoon” written in the verse, and therefore two separate halakhot can be derived from this term.
מַתְנִי׳ יָרֵךְ שֶׁנִּתְבַּשֵּׁל בָּהּ גִּיד הַנָּשֶׁה, אִם יֵשׁ בָּהּ בְּנוֹתֵן טַעַם – הֲרֵי זוֹ אֲסוּרָה. כֵּיצַד מְשַׁעֲרִין אוֹתָהּ? כְּבָשָׂר בְּלֶפֶת.
MISHNA: In the case of a thigh that was cooked with the sciatic nerve in it, if there is enough of the sciatic nerve in it to impart its flavor to the thigh, the entire thigh is forbidden for consumption. How does one measure whether there is enough sciatic nerve to impart flavor to the meat of the entire thigh? One relates to it as though the sciatic nerve were meat imparting flavor to a turnip. If meat the volume of the sciatic nerve would impart flavor to a turnip the volume of the thigh when they were cooked together, then the entire thigh is forbidden.
גִּיד הַנָּשֶׁה שֶׁנִּתְבַּשֵּׁל עִם הַגִּידִים, בִּזְמַן שֶׁמַּכִּירוֹ – בְּנוֹתֵן טַעַם, וְאִם לָאו – כּוּלָּן אֲסוּרִין, וְהָרוֹטֶב בְּנוֹתֵן טַעַם.
With regard to a sciatic nerve that was cooked with other sinews, when one identifies the sciatic nerve and removes it, the other sinews are forbidden if the sciatic nerve was large enough to impart flavor. And if he does not identify it, all the sinews are forbidden because each one could be the sciatic nerve; but the broth is forbidden only if the sciatic nerve imparts flavor to the broth.
וְכֵן חֲתִיכָה שֶׁל נְבֵלָה, וְכֵן חֲתִיכָה שֶׁל דָּג טָמֵא שֶׁנִּתְבַּשְּׁלָה עִם הַחֲתִיכוֹת, בִּזְמַן שֶׁמַּכִּירָן – בְּנוֹתֵן טַעַם, וְאִם לָאו – כּוּלָּן אֲסוּרוֹת, וְהָרוֹטֶב בְּנוֹתֵן טַעַם.
And similarly, in the case of a piece of an animal carcass or a piece of non-kosher fish that was cooked with similar pieces of kosher meat or fish, when one identifies the forbidden piece and removes it, the rest of the meat or fish is forbidden only if the forbidden piece was large enough to impart flavor to the entire mixture. And if he does not identify and remove the forbidden piece, all the pieces are forbidden, due to the possibility that each piece one selects might be the forbidden piece; but the broth is forbidden only if the forbidden piece imparts flavor to the broth.
גְּמָ׳ אָמַר שְׁמוּאֵל: לֹא שָׁנוּ אֶלָּא שֶׁנִּתְבַּשֵּׁל בָּהּ, אֲבָל נִצְלָה בָּהּ – קוֹלֵף וְאוֹכֵל עַד שֶׁמַּגִּיעַ לַגִּיד.
GEMARA: The mishna teaches that a thigh that was cooked with the sciatic nerve is forbidden if the nerve imparts flavor to the thigh. Shmuel says: The Sages taught that the thigh is entirely forbidden only when it was cooked with the sciatic nerve inside it. But if the sciatic nerve was roasted inside the thigh, one may peel away the meat and eat it until he reaches the sciatic nerve, and then he removes the nerve.
אִינִי? וְהָאָמַר רַב הוּנָא: גְּדִי שֶׁצְּלָאוֹ בְּחֶלְבּוֹ – אָסוּר לֶאֱכוֹל אֲפִילּוּ מֵרֹאשׁ אׇזְנוֹ!
The Gemara challenges: Is that so? But doesn’t Rav Huna say: With regard to a kid that was roasted with its forbidden fat, it is prohibited to eat any part of the animal, even from the top of its ear? This proves that roasting, like cooking, spreads the flavor of the forbidden fat throughout the entire animal.
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