Horayot 14a
לֹא הָיָה קָרֵב. אָמַר לוֹ: מִי הֵם הַלָּלוּ שֶׁמֵּימֵיהֶם אָנוּ שׁוֹתִים וּשְׁמוֹתָם אֵין אָנוּ מַזְכִּירִים? אֲמַר לֵיהּ: בְּנֵי אָדָם שֶׁבִּקְּשׁוּ לַעֲקוֹר כְּבוֹדְךָ וּכְבוֹד בֵּית אָבִיךָ.
it would not be sacrificed. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi’s son said to him: Who are these Sages whose water we drink but whose names we do not mention? Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi said to him: They are people who sought to abolish your honor and the honor of your father’s house.
אֲמַר לֵיהּ: ״גַּם אַהֲבָתָם גַּם שִׂנְאָתָם גַּם קִנְאָתָם כְּבָר אָבָדָה״! אֲמַר לֵיהּ: ״הָאוֹיֵב תַּמּוּ חֳרָבוֹת לָנֶצַח״. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: הָנֵי מִלֵּי הֵיכָא דְּאַהֲנוֹ מַעֲשַׂיְיהוּ, רַבָּנַן לָא אַהֲנוֹ מַעֲשַׂיְיהוּ! הֲדַר אַתְנִי לֵיהּ, אָמְרוּ מִשּׁוּם רַבִּי מֵאִיר: אִילּוּ הָיָה תְּמוּרָה לֹא הָיָה קָרֵב. אָמַר רָבָא: אֲפִילּוּ רַבִּי דְּעִנְוְותָנָא הוּא (תְּנָא), ״אָמְרוּ מִשּׁוּם רַבִּי מֵאִיר״. ״אָמַר רַבִּי מֵאִיר״ לָא אָמַר.
His son said to him, citing the verse: “Their love as well as their hatred and their envy is long ago perished” (Ecclesiastes 9:6): That was long ago and they have already died. Therefore, there is no harm in mentioning their names. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi said to him: But it is also stated: “The enemy are come to an end; the wasted places are forever” (Psalms 9:7). Although the enemies died, the desolation that they created remains. Therefore, although they are dead, their names should not be mentioned. Rabban Shimon said to his father: These matters apply in a case where their actions were effective. In the case of these Sages, their actions were not effective. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi then taught him: The Sages said in the name of Rabbi Meir: If it was considered a substitute, it would not be sacrificed. Rava said: Even Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, who is humble, taught: The Sages said in the name of Rabbi Meir. But he did not say directly: Rabbi Meir said.
אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: פְּלִיגוּ בַּהּ רַבָּן שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל וְרַבָּנַן, חַד אָמַר: סִינַי עֲדִיף, וְחַד אָמַר: עוֹקֵר הָרִים עֲדִיף.
§ Rabbi Yoḥanan said: Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel and the Rabbis disagreed with regard to this matter. One said: Sinai, i.e., one who is extremely knowledgeable, is preferable; and one said: One who uproots mountains, i.e., one who is extremely incisive, is preferable.
רַב יוֹסֵף סִינַי, רַבָּה עוֹקֵר הָרִים. שְׁלַחוּ לְתַמָּן: אֵיזֶה מֵהֶם קוֹדֵם? שְׁלַחוּ לְהוּ: סִינַי עֲדִיף, דְּאָמַר מָר: הַכֹּל צְרִיכִין לְמָרֵי חִטַּיָּא, וַאֲפִילּוּ הָכִי לָא קַבֵּיל רַב יוֹסֵף עֲלֵיהּ. מְלַךְ רַבָּה עֶשְׂרִין וְתַרְתֵּי שְׁנִין, וַהֲדַר מְלַךְ רַב יוֹסֵף. וְכֹל שְׁנֵי דִּמְלַךְ רַבָּה, רַב יוֹסֵף אֲפִילּוּ אוּמָּנָא לְבֵיתֵיהּ לָא (חֲלֵיף).
The Gemara relates that this is not merely a theoretical dispute; rather, at one point it had practical ramifications. Rav Yosef was Sinai; Rabba was one who uproots mountains. They sent a message from Babylonia to there, Eretz Yisrael: Which takes precedence? They sent in response: Sinai is preferable, as the Master said: Everyone requires the owner of the wheat, i.e., one who is expert in the sources. And even so, Rav Yosef did not accept upon himself the appointment of head of the yeshiva. Rabba reigned for twenty-two years, and then Rav Yosef reigned. The Gemara relates that in all those years that Rabba presided, Rav Yosef did not even call a bloodletter to his home. Rav Yosef did not assume even the slightest air of authority, in deference to Rabba, and would go to seek out the bloodletter rather than expecting that the bloodletter would accommodate him.
אַבָּיֵי וְרָבָא וְרַבִּי זֵירָא וְרַבָּה בַּר מַתְנָה הֲווֹ יָתְבִי וַהֲווֹ צְרִיכִי רֵישָׁא, אָמְרִי: כֹּל דְּאָמַר מִלְּתָא וְלָא מִפְּרִיךְ, לֶהֱוֵי רֵישָׁא. דְּכוּלְּהוּ אִיפְּרִיךְ, דְּאַבָּיֵי לָא אִיפְּרִיךְ. חַזְיֵיהּ רַבָּה לְאַבָּיֵי דִּגְבַהּ רֵישֵׁאּ, אֲמַר לֵיהּ: נַחְמָנִי, פְּתַח וְאֵימָא.
The Gemara relates: Abaye, Rava, Rabbi Zeira, and Rabba bar Mattana were sitting and studying in a group and were in need of a head for their group. They said: Let anyone who will say a matter that is not refuted be the head. Everyone’s statements were refuted, and the statement of Abaye was not refuted. Rabba saw that Abaye raised his head, i.e., he noticed that his statement was not refuted. Rabba said to him: Naḥmani, calling Abaye by his name rather than by his nickname, begin and say your lecture.
אִיבַּעְיָא לְהוּ: רַבִּי זֵירָא וְרַבָּה בַּר רַב מַתְנָה הֵי מִנַּיְיהוּ עֲדִיף? רַבִּי זֵירָא חָרִיף וּמַקְשֶׁה, וְרַבָּה בַּר רַב מַתְנָה מָתוּן וּמַסֵּיק, מַאי? תֵּיקוּ.
A dilemma was raised before the Sages: Between Rabbi Zeira and Rabba bar Rav Mattana, which of them is preferable? Rabbi Zeira is incisive and raises pertinent difficulties, and Rabba bar Rav Mattana is moderate and not so incisive, but ultimately he draws the appropriate conclusions. What is the conclusion? Which is preferable? The Gemara concludes: The dilemma shall stand unresolved.
הֲדַרַן עֲלָךְ כֹּהֵן מָשִׁיחַ, וּסְלִיקָא לַהּ מַסֶּכֶת הוֹרָיוֹת.
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I have joined the community of daf yomi learners at the start of this cycle. I have studied in different ways – by reading the page, translating the page, attending a local shiur and listening to Rabbanit Farber’s podcasts, depending on circumstances and where I was at the time. The reactions have been positive throughout – with no exception!
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I had no formal learning in Talmud until I began my studies in the Joint Program where in 1976 I was one of the few, if not the only, woman talmud major. It was superior training for law school and enabled me to approach my legal studies with a foundation . In 2018, I began daf yomi listening to Rabbanit MIchelle’s pod cast and my daily talmud studies are one of the highlights of my life.
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תמיד רציתי. למדתי גמרא בבית ספר בטורונטו קנדה. עליתי ארצה ולמדתי שזה לא מקובל. הופתעתי.
יצאתי לגימלאות לפני שנתיים וזה מאפשר את המחוייבות לדף יומי.
עבורי ההתמדה בלימוד מעגן אותי בקשר שלי ליהדות. אני תמיד מחפשת ותמיד. מוצאת מקור לקשר. ללימוד חדש ומחדש. קשר עם נשים לומדות מעמיק את החוויה ומשמעותית מאוד.
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With Rabbanit Dr. Naomi Cohen in the Women’s Talmud class, over 30 years ago. It was a “known” class and it was accepted, because of who taught. Since then I have also studied with Avigail Gross-Gelman and Dr. Gabriel Hazut for about a year). Years ago, in a shiur in my shul, I did know about Persians doing 3 things with their clothes on. They opened the shiur to woman after that!
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Horayot 14a
לֹא הָיָה קָרֵב. אָמַר לוֹ: מִי הֵם הַלָּלוּ שֶׁמֵּימֵיהֶם אָנוּ שׁוֹתִים וּשְׁמוֹתָם אֵין אָנוּ מַזְכִּירִים? אֲמַר לֵיהּ: בְּנֵי אָדָם שֶׁבִּקְּשׁוּ לַעֲקוֹר כְּבוֹדְךָ וּכְבוֹד בֵּית אָבִיךָ.
it would not be sacrificed. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi’s son said to him: Who are these Sages whose water we drink but whose names we do not mention? Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi said to him: They are people who sought to abolish your honor and the honor of your father’s house.
אֲמַר לֵיהּ: ״גַּם אַהֲבָתָם גַּם שִׂנְאָתָם גַּם קִנְאָתָם כְּבָר אָבָדָה״! אֲמַר לֵיהּ: ״הָאוֹיֵב תַּמּוּ חֳרָבוֹת לָנֶצַח״. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: הָנֵי מִלֵּי הֵיכָא דְּאַהֲנוֹ מַעֲשַׂיְיהוּ, רַבָּנַן לָא אַהֲנוֹ מַעֲשַׂיְיהוּ! הֲדַר אַתְנִי לֵיהּ, אָמְרוּ מִשּׁוּם רַבִּי מֵאִיר: אִילּוּ הָיָה תְּמוּרָה לֹא הָיָה קָרֵב. אָמַר רָבָא: אֲפִילּוּ רַבִּי דְּעִנְוְותָנָא הוּא (תְּנָא), ״אָמְרוּ מִשּׁוּם רַבִּי מֵאִיר״. ״אָמַר רַבִּי מֵאִיר״ לָא אָמַר.
His son said to him, citing the verse: “Their love as well as their hatred and their envy is long ago perished” (Ecclesiastes 9:6): That was long ago and they have already died. Therefore, there is no harm in mentioning their names. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi said to him: But it is also stated: “The enemy are come to an end; the wasted places are forever” (Psalms 9:7). Although the enemies died, the desolation that they created remains. Therefore, although they are dead, their names should not be mentioned. Rabban Shimon said to his father: These matters apply in a case where their actions were effective. In the case of these Sages, their actions were not effective. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi then taught him: The Sages said in the name of Rabbi Meir: If it was considered a substitute, it would not be sacrificed. Rava said: Even Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, who is humble, taught: The Sages said in the name of Rabbi Meir. But he did not say directly: Rabbi Meir said.
אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: פְּלִיגוּ בַּהּ רַבָּן שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל וְרַבָּנַן, חַד אָמַר: סִינַי עֲדִיף, וְחַד אָמַר: עוֹקֵר הָרִים עֲדִיף.
§ Rabbi Yoḥanan said: Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel and the Rabbis disagreed with regard to this matter. One said: Sinai, i.e., one who is extremely knowledgeable, is preferable; and one said: One who uproots mountains, i.e., one who is extremely incisive, is preferable.
רַב יוֹסֵף סִינַי, רַבָּה עוֹקֵר הָרִים. שְׁלַחוּ לְתַמָּן: אֵיזֶה מֵהֶם קוֹדֵם? שְׁלַחוּ לְהוּ: סִינַי עֲדִיף, דְּאָמַר מָר: הַכֹּל צְרִיכִין לְמָרֵי חִטַּיָּא, וַאֲפִילּוּ הָכִי לָא קַבֵּיל רַב יוֹסֵף עֲלֵיהּ. מְלַךְ רַבָּה עֶשְׂרִין וְתַרְתֵּי שְׁנִין, וַהֲדַר מְלַךְ רַב יוֹסֵף. וְכֹל שְׁנֵי דִּמְלַךְ רַבָּה, רַב יוֹסֵף אֲפִילּוּ אוּמָּנָא לְבֵיתֵיהּ לָא (חֲלֵיף).
The Gemara relates that this is not merely a theoretical dispute; rather, at one point it had practical ramifications. Rav Yosef was Sinai; Rabba was one who uproots mountains. They sent a message from Babylonia to there, Eretz Yisrael: Which takes precedence? They sent in response: Sinai is preferable, as the Master said: Everyone requires the owner of the wheat, i.e., one who is expert in the sources. And even so, Rav Yosef did not accept upon himself the appointment of head of the yeshiva. Rabba reigned for twenty-two years, and then Rav Yosef reigned. The Gemara relates that in all those years that Rabba presided, Rav Yosef did not even call a bloodletter to his home. Rav Yosef did not assume even the slightest air of authority, in deference to Rabba, and would go to seek out the bloodletter rather than expecting that the bloodletter would accommodate him.
אַבָּיֵי וְרָבָא וְרַבִּי זֵירָא וְרַבָּה בַּר מַתְנָה הֲווֹ יָתְבִי וַהֲווֹ צְרִיכִי רֵישָׁא, אָמְרִי: כֹּל דְּאָמַר מִלְּתָא וְלָא מִפְּרִיךְ, לֶהֱוֵי רֵישָׁא. דְּכוּלְּהוּ אִיפְּרִיךְ, דְּאַבָּיֵי לָא אִיפְּרִיךְ. חַזְיֵיהּ רַבָּה לְאַבָּיֵי דִּגְבַהּ רֵישֵׁאּ, אֲמַר לֵיהּ: נַחְמָנִי, פְּתַח וְאֵימָא.
The Gemara relates: Abaye, Rava, Rabbi Zeira, and Rabba bar Mattana were sitting and studying in a group and were in need of a head for their group. They said: Let anyone who will say a matter that is not refuted be the head. Everyone’s statements were refuted, and the statement of Abaye was not refuted. Rabba saw that Abaye raised his head, i.e., he noticed that his statement was not refuted. Rabba said to him: Naḥmani, calling Abaye by his name rather than by his nickname, begin and say your lecture.
אִיבַּעְיָא לְהוּ: רַבִּי זֵירָא וְרַבָּה בַּר רַב מַתְנָה הֵי מִנַּיְיהוּ עֲדִיף? רַבִּי זֵירָא חָרִיף וּמַקְשֶׁה, וְרַבָּה בַּר רַב מַתְנָה מָתוּן וּמַסֵּיק, מַאי? תֵּיקוּ.
A dilemma was raised before the Sages: Between Rabbi Zeira and Rabba bar Rav Mattana, which of them is preferable? Rabbi Zeira is incisive and raises pertinent difficulties, and Rabba bar Rav Mattana is moderate and not so incisive, but ultimately he draws the appropriate conclusions. What is the conclusion? Which is preferable? The Gemara concludes: The dilemma shall stand unresolved.
הֲדַרַן עֲלָךְ כֹּהֵן מָשִׁיחַ, וּסְלִיקָא לַהּ מַסֶּכֶת הוֹרָיוֹת.
