Horayot 14
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Horayot 14
לֹא הָיָה קָרֵב. אָמַר לוֹ: מִי הֵם הַלָּלוּ שֶׁמֵּימֵיהֶם אָנוּ שׁוֹתִים וּשְׁמוֹתָם אֵין אָנוּ מַזְכִּירִים? אֲמַר לֵיהּ: בְּנֵי אָדָם שֶׁבִּקְּשׁוּ לַעֲקוֹר כְּבוֹדְךָ וּכְבוֹד בֵּית אָבִיךָ.
it would not be sacrificed. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi’s son said to him: Who are these Sages whose water we drink but whose names we do not mention? Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi said to him: They are people who sought to abolish your honor and the honor of your father’s house.
אֲמַר לֵיהּ: ״גַּם אַהֲבָתָם גַּם שִׂנְאָתָם גַּם קִנְאָתָם כְּבָר אָבָדָה״! אֲמַר לֵיהּ: ״הָאוֹיֵב תַּמּוּ חֳרָבוֹת לָנֶצַח״. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: הָנֵי מִלֵּי הֵיכָא דְּאַהֲנוֹ מַעֲשַׂיְיהוּ, רַבָּנַן לָא אַהֲנוֹ מַעֲשַׂיְיהוּ! הֲדַר אַתְנִי לֵיהּ, אָמְרוּ מִשּׁוּם רַבִּי מֵאִיר: אִילּוּ הָיָה תְּמוּרָה לֹא הָיָה קָרֵב. אָמַר רָבָא: אֲפִילּוּ רַבִּי דְּעִנְוְותָנָא הוּא (תְּנָא), ״אָמְרוּ מִשּׁוּם רַבִּי מֵאִיר״. ״אָמַר רַבִּי מֵאִיר״ לָא אָמַר.
His son said to him, citing the verse: “Their love as well as their hatred and their envy is long ago perished” (Ecclesiastes 9:6): That was long ago and they have already died. Therefore, there is no harm in mentioning their names. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi said to him: But it is also stated: “The enemy are come to an end; the wasted places are forever” (Psalms 9:7). Although the enemies died, the desolation that they created remains. Therefore, although they are dead, their names should not be mentioned. Rabban Shimon said to his father: These matters apply in a case where their actions were effective. In the case of these Sages, their actions were not effective. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi then taught him: The Sages said in the name of Rabbi Meir: If it was considered a substitute, it would not be sacrificed. Rava said: Even Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, who is humble, taught: The Sages said in the name of Rabbi Meir. But he did not say directly: Rabbi Meir said.
אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: פְּלִיגוּ בַּהּ רַבָּן שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל וְרַבָּנַן, חַד אָמַר: סִינַי עֲדִיף, וְחַד אָמַר: עוֹקֵר הָרִים עֲדִיף.
§ Rabbi Yoḥanan said: Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel and the Rabbis disagreed with regard to this matter. One said: Sinai, i.e., one who is extremely knowledgeable, is preferable; and one said: One who uproots mountains, i.e., one who is extremely incisive, is preferable.
רַב יוֹסֵף סִינַי, רַבָּה עוֹקֵר הָרִים. שְׁלַחוּ לְתַמָּן: אֵיזֶה מֵהֶם קוֹדֵם? שְׁלַחוּ לְהוּ: סִינַי עֲדִיף, דְּאָמַר מָר: הַכֹּל צְרִיכִין לְמָרֵי חִטַּיָּא, וַאֲפִילּוּ הָכִי לָא קַבֵּיל רַב יוֹסֵף עֲלֵיהּ. מְלַךְ רַבָּה עֶשְׂרִין וְתַרְתֵּי שְׁנִין, וַהֲדַר מְלַךְ רַב יוֹסֵף. וְכֹל שְׁנֵי דִּמְלַךְ רַבָּה, רַב יוֹסֵף אֲפִילּוּ אוּמָּנָא לְבֵיתֵיהּ לָא (חֲלֵיף).
The Gemara relates that this is not merely a theoretical dispute; rather, at one point it had practical ramifications. Rav Yosef was Sinai; Rabba was one who uproots mountains. They sent a message from Babylonia to there, Eretz Yisrael: Which takes precedence? They sent in response: Sinai is preferable, as the Master said: Everyone requires the owner of the wheat, i.e., one who is expert in the sources. And even so, Rav Yosef did not accept upon himself the appointment of head of the yeshiva. Rabba reigned for twenty-two years, and then Rav Yosef reigned. The Gemara relates that in all those years that Rabba presided, Rav Yosef did not even call a bloodletter to his home. Rav Yosef did not assume even the slightest air of authority, in deference to Rabba, and would go to seek out the bloodletter rather than expecting that the bloodletter would accommodate him.
אַבָּיֵי וְרָבָא וְרַבִּי זֵירָא וְרַבָּה בַּר מַתְנָה הֲווֹ יָתְבִי וַהֲווֹ צְרִיכִי רֵישָׁא, אָמְרִי: כֹּל דְּאָמַר מִלְּתָא וְלָא מִפְּרִיךְ, לֶהֱוֵי רֵישָׁא. דְּכוּלְּהוּ אִיפְּרִיךְ, דְּאַבָּיֵי לָא אִיפְּרִיךְ. חַזְיֵיהּ רַבָּה לְאַבָּיֵי דִּגְבַהּ רֵישֵׁאּ, אֲמַר לֵיהּ: נַחְמָנִי, פְּתַח וְאֵימָא.
The Gemara relates: Abaye, Rava, Rabbi Zeira, and Rabba bar Mattana were sitting and studying in a group and were in need of a head for their group. They said: Let anyone who will say a matter that is not refuted be the head. Everyone’s statements were refuted, and the statement of Abaye was not refuted. Rabba saw that Abaye raised his head, i.e., he noticed that his statement was not refuted. Rabba said to him: Naḥmani, calling Abaye by his name rather than by his nickname, begin and say your lecture.
אִיבַּעְיָא לְהוּ: רַבִּי זֵירָא וְרַבָּה בַּר רַב מַתְנָה הֵי מִנַּיְיהוּ עֲדִיף? רַבִּי זֵירָא חָרִיף וּמַקְשֶׁה, וְרַבָּה בַּר רַב מַתְנָה מָתוּן וּמַסֵּיק, מַאי? תֵּיקוּ.
A dilemma was raised before the Sages: Between Rabbi Zeira and Rabba bar Rav Mattana, which of them is preferable? Rabbi Zeira is incisive and raises pertinent difficulties, and Rabba bar Rav Mattana is moderate and not so incisive, but ultimately he draws the appropriate conclusions. What is the conclusion? Which is preferable? The Gemara concludes: The dilemma shall stand unresolved.
הֲדַרַן עֲלָךְ כֹּהֵן מָשִׁיחַ, וּסְלִיקָא לַהּ מַסֶּכֶת הוֹרָיוֹת.
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I started learning Daf Yomi in January 2020 after watching my grandfather, Mayer Penstein z”l, finish shas with the previous cycle. My grandfather made learning so much fun was so proud that his grandchildren wanted to join him. I was also inspired by Ilana Kurshan’s book, If All the Seas Were Ink. Two years in, I can say that it has enriched my life in so many ways.
New York, United States
תמיד רציתי. למדתי גמרא בבית ספר בטורונטו קנדה. עליתי ארצה ולמדתי שזה לא מקובל. הופתעתי.
יצאתי לגימלאות לפני שנתיים וזה מאפשר את המחוייבות לדף יומי.
עבורי ההתמדה בלימוד מעגן אותי בקשר שלי ליהדות. אני תמיד מחפשת ותמיד. מוצאת מקור לקשר. ללימוד חדש ומחדש. קשר עם נשים לומדות מעמיק את החוויה ומשמעותית מאוד.
מיתר, ישראל
I began Daf Yomi with the last cycle. I was inspired by the Hadran Siyum in Yerushalayim to continue with this cycle. I have learned Daf Yomi with Rabanit Michelle in over 25 countries on 6 continents ( missing Australia)
Silver Spring, MD, United States
I started learning Gemara at the Yeshivah of Flatbush. And I resumed ‘ברוך ה decades later with Rabbanit Michele at Hadran. I started from Brachot and have had an exciting, rewarding experience throughout seder Moed!
Maale Adumim, Israel
Jerusalem, Israel
When we heard that R. Michelle was starting daf yomi, my 11-year-old suggested that I go. Little did she know that she would lose me every morning from then on. I remember standing at the Farbers’ door, almost too shy to enter. After that first class, I said that I would come the next day but couldn’t commit to more. A decade later, I still look forward to learning from R. Michelle every morning.
Ra’anana, Israel
In January 2020, my teaching partner at IDC suggested we do daf yomi. Thanks to her challenge, I started learning daily from Rabbanit Michelle. It’s a joy to be part of the Hadran community. (It’s also a tikkun: in 7th grade, my best friend and I tied for first place in a citywide gemara exam, but we weren’t invited to the celebration because girls weren’t supposed to be learning gemara).
Jerusalem, Israel
Geri Goldstein got me started learning daf yomi when I was in Israel 2 years ago. It’s been a challenge and I’ve learned a lot though I’m sure I miss a lot. I quilt as I listen and I want to share what I’ve been working on.
Ottawa, Canada
I learned Mishnayot more than twenty years ago and started with Gemara much later in life. Although I never managed to learn Daf Yomi consistently, I am learning since some years Gemara in depth and with much joy. Since last year I am studying at the International Halakha Scholars Program at the WIHL. I often listen to Rabbanit Farbers Gemara shiurim to understand better a specific sugyiah. I am grateful for the help and inspiration!
Berlin, Germany
I started learning daf in January, 2020, being inspired by watching the Siyyum Hashas in Binyanei Haumah. I wasn’t sure I would be able to keep up with the task. When I went to school, Gemara was not an option. Fast forward to March, 2022, and each day starts with the daf. The challenge is now learning the intricacies of delving into the actual learning. Hadran community, thank you!
Riverdale, NY, United States
תמיד רציתי. למדתי גמרא בבית ספר בטורונטו קנדה. עליתי ארצה ולמדתי שזה לא מקובל. הופתעתי.
יצאתי לגימלאות לפני שנתיים וזה מאפשר את המחוייבות לדף יומי.
עבורי ההתמדה בלימוד מעגן אותי בקשר שלי ליהדות. אני תמיד מחפשת ותמיד. מוצאת מקור לקשר. ללימוד חדש ומחדש. קשר עם נשים לומדות מעמיק את החוויה ומשמעותית מאוד.
מיתר, ישראל
I started learning with rabbis. I needed to know more than the stories. My first teacher to show me “the way of the Talmud” as well as the stories was Samara Schwartz.
Michelle Farber started the new cycle 2 yrs ago and I jumped on for the ride.
I do not look back.
Houston, United States
Richmond, CA, United States
New York, United States
I heard about the syium in January 2020 & I was excited to start learning then the pandemic started. Learning Daf became something to focus on but also something stressful. As the world changed around me & my family I had to adjust my expectations for myself & the world. Daf Yomi & the Hadran podcast has been something I look forward to every day. It gives me a moment of centering & Judaism daily.
Denver, United States
The first month I learned Daf Yomi by myself in secret, because I wasn’t sure how my husband would react, but after the siyyum on Masechet Brachot I discovered Hadran and now sometimes my husband listens to the daf with me. He and I also learn mishnayot together and are constantly finding connections between the different masechtot.
Silver Spring, Maryland, United States
I started my Daf Yomi journey at the beginning of the COVID19 pandemic.
Los Angeles, United States
I started learning Jan 2020 when I heard the new cycle was starting. I had tried during the last cycle and didn’t make it past a few weeks. Learning online from old men didn’t speak to my soul and I knew Talmud had to be a soul journey for me. Enter Hadran! Talmud from Rabbanit Michelle Farber from a woman’s perspective, a mother’s perspective and a modern perspective. Motivated to continue!
Brentwood, California, United States
I started learning after the siyum hashas for women and my daily learning has been a constant over the last two years. It grounded me during the chaos of Corona while providing me with a community of fellow learners. The Daf can be challenging but it’s filled with life’s lessons, struggles and hope for a better world. It’s not about the destination but rather about the journey. Thank you Hadran!
אפרת, Israel
Oceanside NY, United States
Horayot 14
לֹא הָיָה קָרֵב. אָמַר לוֹ: מִי הֵם הַלָּלוּ שֶׁמֵּימֵיהֶם אָנוּ שׁוֹתִים וּשְׁמוֹתָם אֵין אָנוּ מַזְכִּירִים? אֲמַר לֵיהּ: בְּנֵי אָדָם שֶׁבִּקְּשׁוּ לַעֲקוֹר כְּבוֹדְךָ וּכְבוֹד בֵּית אָבִיךָ.
it would not be sacrificed. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi’s son said to him: Who are these Sages whose water we drink but whose names we do not mention? Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi said to him: They are people who sought to abolish your honor and the honor of your father’s house.
אֲמַר לֵיהּ: ״גַּם אַהֲבָתָם גַּם שִׂנְאָתָם גַּם קִנְאָתָם כְּבָר אָבָדָה״! אֲמַר לֵיהּ: ״הָאוֹיֵב תַּמּוּ חֳרָבוֹת לָנֶצַח״. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: הָנֵי מִלֵּי הֵיכָא דְּאַהֲנוֹ מַעֲשַׂיְיהוּ, רַבָּנַן לָא אַהֲנוֹ מַעֲשַׂיְיהוּ! הֲדַר אַתְנִי לֵיהּ, אָמְרוּ מִשּׁוּם רַבִּי מֵאִיר: אִילּוּ הָיָה תְּמוּרָה לֹא הָיָה קָרֵב. אָמַר רָבָא: אֲפִילּוּ רַבִּי דְּעִנְוְותָנָא הוּא (תְּנָא), ״אָמְרוּ מִשּׁוּם רַבִּי מֵאִיר״. ״אָמַר רַבִּי מֵאִיר״ לָא אָמַר.
His son said to him, citing the verse: “Their love as well as their hatred and their envy is long ago perished” (Ecclesiastes 9:6): That was long ago and they have already died. Therefore, there is no harm in mentioning their names. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi said to him: But it is also stated: “The enemy are come to an end; the wasted places are forever” (Psalms 9:7). Although the enemies died, the desolation that they created remains. Therefore, although they are dead, their names should not be mentioned. Rabban Shimon said to his father: These matters apply in a case where their actions were effective. In the case of these Sages, their actions were not effective. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi then taught him: The Sages said in the name of Rabbi Meir: If it was considered a substitute, it would not be sacrificed. Rava said: Even Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, who is humble, taught: The Sages said in the name of Rabbi Meir. But he did not say directly: Rabbi Meir said.
אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: פְּלִיגוּ בַּהּ רַבָּן שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל וְרַבָּנַן, חַד אָמַר: סִינַי עֲדִיף, וְחַד אָמַר: עוֹקֵר הָרִים עֲדִיף.
§ Rabbi Yoḥanan said: Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel and the Rabbis disagreed with regard to this matter. One said: Sinai, i.e., one who is extremely knowledgeable, is preferable; and one said: One who uproots mountains, i.e., one who is extremely incisive, is preferable.
רַב יוֹסֵף סִינַי, רַבָּה עוֹקֵר הָרִים. שְׁלַחוּ לְתַמָּן: אֵיזֶה מֵהֶם קוֹדֵם? שְׁלַחוּ לְהוּ: סִינַי עֲדִיף, דְּאָמַר מָר: הַכֹּל צְרִיכִין לְמָרֵי חִטַּיָּא, וַאֲפִילּוּ הָכִי לָא קַבֵּיל רַב יוֹסֵף עֲלֵיהּ. מְלַךְ רַבָּה עֶשְׂרִין וְתַרְתֵּי שְׁנִין, וַהֲדַר מְלַךְ רַב יוֹסֵף. וְכֹל שְׁנֵי דִּמְלַךְ רַבָּה, רַב יוֹסֵף אֲפִילּוּ אוּמָּנָא לְבֵיתֵיהּ לָא (חֲלֵיף).
The Gemara relates that this is not merely a theoretical dispute; rather, at one point it had practical ramifications. Rav Yosef was Sinai; Rabba was one who uproots mountains. They sent a message from Babylonia to there, Eretz Yisrael: Which takes precedence? They sent in response: Sinai is preferable, as the Master said: Everyone requires the owner of the wheat, i.e., one who is expert in the sources. And even so, Rav Yosef did not accept upon himself the appointment of head of the yeshiva. Rabba reigned for twenty-two years, and then Rav Yosef reigned. The Gemara relates that in all those years that Rabba presided, Rav Yosef did not even call a bloodletter to his home. Rav Yosef did not assume even the slightest air of authority, in deference to Rabba, and would go to seek out the bloodletter rather than expecting that the bloodletter would accommodate him.
אַבָּיֵי וְרָבָא וְרַבִּי זֵירָא וְרַבָּה בַּר מַתְנָה הֲווֹ יָתְבִי וַהֲווֹ צְרִיכִי רֵישָׁא, אָמְרִי: כֹּל דְּאָמַר מִלְּתָא וְלָא מִפְּרִיךְ, לֶהֱוֵי רֵישָׁא. דְּכוּלְּהוּ אִיפְּרִיךְ, דְּאַבָּיֵי לָא אִיפְּרִיךְ. חַזְיֵיהּ רַבָּה לְאַבָּיֵי דִּגְבַהּ רֵישֵׁאּ, אֲמַר לֵיהּ: נַחְמָנִי, פְּתַח וְאֵימָא.
The Gemara relates: Abaye, Rava, Rabbi Zeira, and Rabba bar Mattana were sitting and studying in a group and were in need of a head for their group. They said: Let anyone who will say a matter that is not refuted be the head. Everyone’s statements were refuted, and the statement of Abaye was not refuted. Rabba saw that Abaye raised his head, i.e., he noticed that his statement was not refuted. Rabba said to him: Naḥmani, calling Abaye by his name rather than by his nickname, begin and say your lecture.
אִיבַּעְיָא לְהוּ: רַבִּי זֵירָא וְרַבָּה בַּר רַב מַתְנָה הֵי מִנַּיְיהוּ עֲדִיף? רַבִּי זֵירָא חָרִיף וּמַקְשֶׁה, וְרַבָּה בַּר רַב מַתְנָה מָתוּן וּמַסֵּיק, מַאי? תֵּיקוּ.
A dilemma was raised before the Sages: Between Rabbi Zeira and Rabba bar Rav Mattana, which of them is preferable? Rabbi Zeira is incisive and raises pertinent difficulties, and Rabba bar Rav Mattana is moderate and not so incisive, but ultimately he draws the appropriate conclusions. What is the conclusion? Which is preferable? The Gemara concludes: The dilemma shall stand unresolved.
הֲדַרַן עֲלָךְ כֹּהֵן מָשִׁיחַ, וּסְלִיקָא לַהּ מַסֶּכֶת הוֹרָיוֹת.
